getting kicked from end game pfs as soon as I join?

[MoroMurasaki]

On the other hand, that's MY data that I didn't give anyone permission to use. I don't like that just a facet of your performance can be ripped out of your hands like that and uploaded for the world to see without you having any say in it.

I very much agree with the rest of your post but I just don't think it's fair to look at fflogs this way. The only time your performance is your own is when you're doing something solo. The rest of the time, good or bad, you aren't 100% responsible for or in control of those numbers to begin with much less enough so that you have any ownership over them.

While I never recommend it to anyone either hiding your logs is technically an option available to everyone. In situations like the OP is talking about I would say hiding logs is closer to an admission of guilt than anything though - very few people want to hide when they're doing well at something. I've partied with some people via PF with really sketchy fflogs pages and quite a few of then turned out to be completely fine.

Judging someone by their logs (especially when there aren't a lot of them) is silly but judging someone for deliberately hiding their performance is just common sense and healthy skepticism.

[Stormfur]

I very much agree with the rest of your post but I just don't think it's fair to look at fflogs this way. The only time your performance is your own is when you're doing something solo. The rest of the time, good or bad, you aren't 100% responsible for or in control of those numbers to begin with much less enough so that you have any ownership over them.

I understand. Because it is a group effort, I understand why someone would want to see your specific contribution in that specific fight. Unfortunately that's all they see and they very much do judge a book by its cover (or a parse by its color, in this case). You can't explain "well, I was down with the flu" or "we were still learning the fight at that point." or whatever. It doesn't tell the whole story or make up the whole picture of you as a player.

Of course, any time I bring this up, people ask "why are you against it? You must have something to hide!" But to those people I'd simply reply:

"Glass bathroom stalls."

Could you imagine glass bathroom stalls being installed in public restrooms? (mock outrage) What? You think that's crazy? Well why are you against it? You must have something to hide!

Just because you have nothing to hide doesn't mean you shouldn't want privacy. Maybe I don't want my specific contribution shared. That should be my prerogative. But hiding it immediately causes a reflex reaction of "you must be hiding it because you're bad."

[HyoMinPark]

Of course, any time I bring this up, people ask "why are you against it? You must have something to hide!" But to those people I'd simply reply:

"Glass bathroom stalls."

Could you imagine glass bathroom stalls being installed in public restrooms? (mock outrage) What? You think that's crazy? Well why are you against it? You must have something to hide!

Just because you have nothing to hide doesn't mean you shouldn't want privacy. Maybe I don't want my specific contribution shared. That should be my prerogative. But hiding it immediately causes a reflex reaction of "you must be hiding it because you're bad."

I’m sorry, but these two things are not even remotely comparable. This is a huge strawman, my dude.

[MoroMurasaki]

I understand. Because it is a group effort, I understand why someone would want to see your specific contribution in that specific fight. Unfortunately that's all they see and they very much do judge a book by its cover (or a parse by its color, in this case). You can't explain "well, I was down with the flu" or "we were still learning the fight at that point." or whatever. It doesn't tell the whole story or make up the whole picture of you as a player.

Of course, any time I bring this up, people ask "why are you against it? You must have something to hide!" But to those people I'd simply reply:

"Glass bathroom stalls."

Could you imagine glass bathroom stalls being installed in public restrooms? (mock outrage) What? You think that's crazy? Well why are you against it? You must have something to hide!

Just because you have nothing to hide doesn't mean you shouldn't want privacy. Maybe I don't want my specific contribution shared. That should be my prerogative. But hiding it immediately causes a reflex reaction of "you must be hiding it because you're bad."

I may be the crazy one here but I would gladly allow every log of everything I've ever been in be public to everyone ever than to be naked in front of strangers and using the restroom.

If you don't feel the same way... I mean congrats, that's some impressive self confidence.

But no, none of this is a rebuttal. You could be hiding perfectly respectable logs but in my experience people with hidden logs perform worse than people with open ones only showing grey. That is also the experience (it seems) of most other people who think to look at fflogs when bringing a random player into Savage. It might not be the case with you specifically, you may be really great, but when it's snap judgment time I'm not putting my money on a slim chance.

[Nora_of_Mira]

I understand. Because it is a group effort, I understand why someone would want to see your specific contribution in that specific fight. Unfortunately that's all they see and they very much do judge a book by its cover. [...] You can't explain "well, I was down with the flu" or "we were still learning the fight at that point." or whatever. It doesn't tell the whole story or make up the whole picture of you as a player.

I don't want to say it, but that's because that is all that matters. If the group's objective is to clear a fight, prog a fight, or even start learning a fight, and you can't participate on the same level due to being sick or because they're lying...you shouldn't be in that party. And you or whoever should not even want to be in a party while you're sick or underperforming, or w/e.

It's way too defensive to say "you dont know the whole story, man" when instead you or whoever should just take responsibility for your actions and adjust.

[Beckett]

Just because you have nothing to hide doesn't mean you shouldn't want privacy. Maybe I don't want my specific contribution shared. That should be my prerogative. But hiding it immediately causes a reflex reaction of "you must be hiding it because you're bad."

In the context of joining a group for Savage raid content, I look at it more like applying for a job. When you're joining a clear party, you're presenting yourself as a qualified player. I don't think it's unreasonable for the party leader to "check your resume", so to speak.

"So, you're qualified for this position?"
"Oh yes, I'm very skilled!"
"Alright, let me just check your references...
Okay, I called your last job and they said you were fired for gross incompetence."

And if you don't bring your resume, you shouldn't be surprised when your potential employer is concerned that you're obfuscating your past job history.

[Sylvina]

In the context of joining a group for Savage raid content, I look at it more like applying for a job. When you're joining a clear party, you're presenting yourself as a qualified player. I don't think it's unreasonable for the party leader to "check your resume", so to speak.

"So, you're qualified for this position?"
"Oh yes, I'm very skilled!"
"Alright, let me just check your references...
Okay, I called your last job and they said you were fired for gross incompetence."

And if you don't bring your resume, you shouldn't be surprised when your potential employer is concerned that you're obfuscating your past job history.

It's still a game, treating it as a job is absurd. Sure you have to show up on time for raids. but having to bring a "Resume" and being judged before people even get to know you is a cancer.

[WhyAmIHere]

It's still a game, treating it as a job is absurd. Sure you have to show up on time for raids. but having to bring a "Resume" and being judged before people even get to know you is a cancer.

you're exaggerating the dude's point to make your own seem more valid.
which is funny because the "applying for a job" thing works very appropriately for much of the game in a group-setting context.

Looking to join a static? K, cool.
"Where are your logs?"
"I have them hidden"
From this point, the static lead is entirely entitled to either pursue the issue, asking you why you have your logs hidden; and/or up to and including saying "we're gonna keep looking, thanks for trying." That's their right to do, and how anyone feels in this matter isn't relevant.
Or, they can give you a chance and see how things play out. From there, they'll decide whether you're worth keeping around, or getting rid of you and continuing to find people more suited to what their goals are.

In this case, the person being denied the group could complain "but I wanted to raid!" Good for you, you're entitled to do whatever you wish. But you're not entitled to have other people conform to your wants.
Just as much as that group leader is responsible for making decisions that best benefit the group.

FFLogs isn't toxic. It isn't inherently bad; it's a tool. Tools by themselves are not dangerous, but when a toxic person uses a tool in a toxic way, it's still the person that's at fault, not the tool.

[Miste]

It's still a game, treating it as a job is absurd. Sure you have to show up on time for raids. but having to bring a "Resume" and being judged before people even get to know you is a cancer.

I don't even run my static like this since I look at people's personality/attitude first and always try people out first no matter what logs say, but honestly who are you to say other players cannot run their own groups as such?

When you mix two totally different mind sets into one group that is when you get friction. That is why it is best to find groups that offer like minded players for you to play with.

Everyone has fun in different ways. If you take people who want to optimize, use fflogs, and have certain standards for their recruitment and have fun doing as such and mix them with people who don't care to optimize, don't want to use fflogs, and don't care how well they play their role then it causes both sides to not have fun and then frustration and friction settles in really fast.

There is literally no point in a static accepting someone who is below their personal standard choices because it is only going to cause friction and problems due to playstyles being mismatched.

Not saying personality/attitude doesn't matter, just that it is all encompassing. When groups look for members it can be a combination of personality/attitude and also playstyle/skill so that everyone in the group is around the same mindset, while some groups may even opt to only care about skill/logs/experience and not care much about personality/attitude.

So yes, it is a game, but some players have standards for things which affects their personal fun; so players who play less optimal and not care causes them to not enjoy themselves while playing so they avoid them for their personal groups.

Just like people who prefer not to use fflogs and not to optimize would prefer to just focus on playing however they feel like so they might actively avoid more hardcore fflogs players so they maintain their way of fun without being bothered by others.

In all honesty this is the best way to deal with this. Both sides need to look for and play with people who are like minded.

It is not a "cancer" to protect your own enjoyment just as everyone does be it casual or hardcore. If you see statics saying you need to show logs or ask for them and you don't believe in that then bow out and look for another. You also have the option to start your own group and make it how you want it to be.

I finally gave up and made my own static to get everyone as like minded as possible and tried to find good meshing personalities for everyone (so that the environment is fun/enjoyable and everyone gets along) and logs only secondary (while still trying to get people somewhat around the same skill level) to make a better environment for myself, my boyfriend, and my friends.

We have become a quite nice tight knit static now with the people we have and we have fun raiding and improving together. Sometimes you have to create what you want to get the best out of something.

[Paladinleeds]

snip

What Miste said is absolutely bang on. If a group wants to be a world first chaser, they need the competent players. As in, very competent players. Their prerogative to do so. I'm not interested in that so I won't join them. I am a personality and attitude first kinda guy when it comes to leading a group. I want a static that'll gel well, that has a laugh (I mean look at NEST, do they even optimise?), etc. Atmosphere first, performance second (we can work with weak performance, but working around someone who doesn't fit into the static at all, can't work with that myself). But for those who are performance first, atmosphere second, keep doing what you do! There's markets for groups that are atmosphere only, performance only, and everything in between. Find what suits you.

I consider PFs to be like my last job I had where you were sent out to companies via the agency. You had to be interviewed for each one and prove your competence. FFLogs is your CV there. Every group leader will expect different levels of competence (just like every interviewer IRL will expect different levels of competence). Sure, you can pull the "But FFXIV isn't a job" and you'd be right, but the competence aspect still holds water due to the way personalities leak between IG and IRL.