Hoarding Houses - Sometimes a Depressing Sight (a rant)

[MizArai]

Despite what people may think of me from what I said in this thread, I don't want anyone to have anything taken away from them.

I wonder why people might think that... looks at original post

I know players are allowed to do what they want with their houses, and this does include doing nothing, but as long as there are limited plots then SE should do their best to make sure as many players as possible benefit from the current system. Grandfathering goes against that.

I really hope SE will soon make all characters have access to the same private home, and at the same time take away excess housing from these grandfathered players. No one needs seven houses.

Looks like people might think you want things taken away from them because you said exactly that.

If we had instanced housing this wouldn't have happened. My friend could keep their door unlocked for all their friends, but locked to everyone else.

You're assuming that the locks for instanced housing would be different than what we currently have, when they probably would not. Apartments and FC rooms are an all or nothing kind of deal since there are no tenants. Houses are tenants only or everyone. If we had a friend only option, then your friend could have done that with their current house (no need for instanced housing in this example).

With all that said, SE, please, please, please give us a third option for locking our house where only people on our friend list can come in. Also, despite me pointing out it wasn't needed in that example, I'd love to see an instanced housing system in addition to the wards we currently have. I personally really like the feel of the wards, but I understand many people do not and wards are a huge strain on the servers that really cannot address the housing needs of the more populated servers. We need another type of housing which can grow with the population of a server and some form of instanced housing would probably be the best solution for that.

[Themarvin]

I wonder why people might think that... looks at original post



Looks like people might think you want things taken away from them because you said exactly that.



You're assuming that the locks for instanced housing would be different than what we currently have, when they probably would not. Apartments and FC rooms are an all or nothing kind of deal since there are no tenants. Houses are tenants only or everyone. If we had a friend only option, then your friend could have done that with their current house (no need for instanced housing in this example).

With all that said, SE, please, please, please give us a third option for locking our house where only people on our friend list can come in. Also, despite me pointing out it wasn't needed in that example, I'd love to see an instanced housing system in addition to the wards we currently have. I personally really like the feel of the wards, but I understand many people do not and wards are a huge strain on the servers that really cannot address the housing needs of the more populated servers. We need another type of housing which can grow with the population of a server and some form of instanced housing would probably be the best solution for that.

The current housing system is instanced, you travel to another instance with house plots in them and the houses themself is instances, having it hard instanced so you can't meet your neighbors and the likes, no thank you please.

[MizArai]

Just revoke the grandfathering and give those that have multiple houses a choice in which one they want to keep, it is simple as that whenever it get to it, bad PR or not, in this case it would not be bad PR to give everyone a fair or better chance at even getting their first house... I don't think so, SE has all the rights to change gameplay over time, if want to have multiple houses play a game like Starwars Galaxy EMU or something down those lines, there you can even build cities in the open, or go for minecraft or something.

It say in the ToS somewhere that gameplay and requirements may change over time, and that is a legit document that every players has signed, also as a player you don't own your account SE does and can be set free to change stuff with making an addition to the ToS you have to sign to be able to log into the game with eg. the next patch.

No need to @me on this either, view and standpoint will not change to that either.

You've played a game for 5 years, bought multiple houses at these prices, and now because there are more people playing than SE thought would want to play you should have to give up something you worked really hard for? How is it fair to take something away from a player that they have had for years because more people started playing the game? Especially when there are servers like Zalera, Goblin, Brynhildr, & Coeurl that have tons of empty plots available? While this might not change your mind, I hope that it might give you something to think about, and maybe give you a bit of empathy for some of the people on the other side. And the User Agreement we all agreed to when starting the game has not been changed at all since August 24, 2013. I would hazard to guess that while you're correct that SE can change it at any point, they aren't going to any time soon (even though it really should have been updated a few times since then).

The current housing system is instanced, you travel to another instance with house plots in them and the houses themself is instances, having it hard instanced so you can't meet your neighbors and the likes, no thank you please.

I love our ward system. Many others do not. I would like to see the option for those that do want it, and maybe as a way for all characters to be able to have their own house and not just an apartment (or maybe just an apartment if they really do expand them like they said they were looking into).
quick edit - As I understand it our current housing system is not truly instanced with all of the wards from all of the worlds constantly taking up space like the other worlds zones on the servers. While the insides of the houses are instanced, the wards themselves are not.

[Themarvin]

You've played a game for 5 years, bought multiple houses at these prices, and now because there are more people playing than SE thought would want to play you should have to give up something you worked really hard for? How is it fair to take something away from a player that they have had for years because more people started playing the game? Especially when there are servers like Zalera, Goblin, Brynhildr, & Coeurl that have tons of empty plots available? While this might not change your mind, I hope that it might give you something to think about, and maybe give you a bit of empathy for some of the people on the other side. And the User Agreement we all agreed to when starting the game has not been changed at all since August 24, 2013. I would hazard to guess that while you're correct that SE can change it at any point, they aren't going to any time soon (even though it really should have been updated a few times since then).



I love our ward system. Many others do not. I would like to see the option for those that do want it, and maybe as a way for all characters to be able to have their own house and not just an apartment (or maybe just an apartment if they really do expand them like they said they were looking into).
quick edit - As I understand it our current housing system is not truly instanced with all of the wards from all of the worlds constantly taking up space like the other worlds zones on the servers. While the insides of the houses are instanced, the wards themselves are not.

To answer that, yes they should do so, other games do and have done similar things for the greater good, also it is just a game so technically can not really be hurt other than actually having one house you can spend all the time in as doubtfully would be able to fully enjoy 20 of them for any purpose or use whenever it get to it and yes I know, I got more than 11000 hours in FF, also why should someone change servers if someone own 20 hours being grandfathered, why should people leave their friends, would it not be better for these Grandfathered people for an instance themself move to a server that is barely populated so they can endure their thing for house hording better instead of pestering the actual more populated places, it is a clear minority that has more then the current allowed housing as it is, just stick with the times as it is.

The wards themself is an instance, we got 18 instances with 18 sub divisions in them, that allow multiple people in it, alike Eureka (insertwhateevrareahere)

I would go with SE enforcing this with a but and solution as well, multi owners getting moved to a server entirely for that as an option to keep their stuff as be giving the choice to move to another server or give up all property on current one as a better solution, instead of legit players having to feel punished by being forced to move to an empty server just to get a hosue or have a better chance at getting one as it is

[AriesMouse]

would it not be better for these Grandfathered people for an instance themself move to a server that is barely populated so they can endure their thing for house hording better instead of pestering the actual more populated places.

That is literally what some of them have done, and then years later, years of the servers being dead, houses being open and at bottom devalue price, SE suddenly make the servers preferred and encouraged people to move to them. That is exactly what happened to Mateus. People got their houses, and there were plenty of houses still around to be had, and it was perfectly fine for YEARS. Then the flood of transfers, and then the endless flood of salt.

This is still an SE made problem, and the only solution is to make housing an infinite resource rather than a finite one. Until people focus on pushing for that, SE will continue to do nothing while we all fight about everything else, thoroughly distracted.


I'm also going to state again, louder for the people in the back:

At the end of the day, there is a slippery slope here, when it comes to saying something needs to be removed from players. Where do you draw the line? When does "this person has too much, take some away" stop? Does it just stop with people with more than 1 personal house? Or would it just move on to "no one should have a personal mansion", or "an FC needs this house more, take away the personal housing". I have seen those sorts of statements before. Once you open the door to things being removed, you can't close it. Also take for example people that have more than one house because they have more than one service account. Should they lose their houses to? They are 100% within the rules, but people will argue that they should still drop to just one. Rather than fighting to take away other people's toys, why not fight harder for SE to provide enough for all of us to play with evenly?

[Penthea]

That is literally what some of them have done, and then years later, years of the servers being dead, houses being open and at bottom devalue price, SE suddenly make the servers preferred and encouraged people to move to them. That is exactly what happened to Mateus. People got their houses, and there were plenty of houses still around to be had, and it was perfectly fine for YEARS. Then the flood of transfers, and then the endless flood of salt.

This is still an SE made problem, and the only solution is to make housing an infinite resource rather than a finite one. Until people focus on pushing for that, SE will continue to do nothing while we all fight about everything else, thoroughly distracted.

I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here, it almost appears as if you are saying it's bad thing that SE encouraged people to play on less populated servers because it further highlighted house hoarding issues, which in turn made other house hoarders a target for the community because their actions deprived players of content, and this was bad because it was fine for years until SE shook it up.

If this is what you're saying...uh...wow? There is a very long list of reasons why it's better for both SE and the players if the population of the servers is more evenly distributed, and most of them have little to do with housing. The peace and quiet hoarders had on dead servers was definitely not something on SE's list of priorities, and it should not be. The health and stability of the servers matters far more than a minority of players hoarding houses.

As for "fine". Um...no hoarding houses is never fine whether the server is dead or very much active. Just because the problem was hidden on dead servers doesn't automatically mean it was fine. Mateus was dead. If something becomes a problem when a server's tiny population begins to grow then it means that thing was a problem all along. The servers are intended to be populated. They are never intended to be dead.

I am not denying that the whole housing mess is a problem that began with SE, because it most certainly did. But let's not pretend that there aren't players who are making these problems worse with their antics. House hoarders know housing is in a limited quantity. They know full well that owning several houses means they are possibly denying content to several people and/or several fcs. They know they took advantage of a badly made system. SE messed up with housing, but house hoarders and house flippers made it worse with their greed.

At the end of the day, there is a slippery slope here, when it comes to saying something needs to be removed from players. Where do you draw the line? When does "this person has too much, take some away" stop? Does it just stop with people with more than 1 personal house?

Pretty simple. It stops when all players have the exact same limitations on how many houses they can own.

And sorry but this slippery slope argument is weak when avoiding the slope means keeping a minority happy while a far larger amount of people are literally being deprived of content. I really can't fathom how anyone thinks facilitating the greed of a minority is more important than the happiness of a larger amount of players.

Also seriously, why do some of you talk like SE should never do an unspeakable act such as remove things from players because it would only mean bad things. Have you truly forgotten demolition wasn't always in the game? And that its introduction was mostly very well received because it more evenly distributed houses among players? Or do we conveniently forget about this because it draws too many parallels with house hoarders that make them look bad?

[AriesMouse]

snip

Firstly, all I was saying is that these hoarders that people go out of their way to demonize mostly were doing no harm. Their intentions were not malicious, and many of them tried their hardest to do what they are passionate about in a way that hurt no one, and that worked well for a long time. No one cared, because it didn't effect anyone. I'm just trying to say, give them a little credit for at least trying to enjoy their hobby without getting in the way of everyone else, rather than spending so much time speaking about them as if they are the one true evil of housing. They aren't. SE is.

I'm not going to sit here and entertain the idea that 'house hoarders' are the root of all evil, or that what they do is somehow so morally corrupt that they need be punished. That just simply isn't the case. Many of them are simply people passionate about housing, for many it is their end game in ff14. They broke no rules, and they played the game fairly. The only solution is for SE to give enough houses for all, not to take any away. Punishing people for playing by the rules is never, under any circumstances, a good thing, which is exactly why they were grandfathered in. SE knows this, and agrees with it, and they made that very clear in their actions by allowing them to keep their houses. Demanding a change now is just, as stated, wasting time and keeping people distracted instead of actually just pushing for a better solution. When we stop turning on each other, and focus on SE, things will likely improve.

Second, the slippery slope argument isn't weak here, when again, I have seen people argue for many of the things I've listed. Do you think they will suddenly stop if the rules are changed an the grandfathered people get their houses removed? Not likely. The houses freed up will vanish in days, and then the problem will continue. Not enough houses. It won't change anything other than giving SE an sizable amount of PR damage.

You seem to think it is a minority group that is in favor of grandfathered people keeping their houses, but I think you're mistaken on that. This change would not be the same as the demolition timer, since that was mostly effecting players that weren't playing to free up a resource not being used. You're saying that people should have things taken away they are actively using, and spending tons of gil, and possibly real life money on from mog station. Apples and Oranges at this point. Also keep in mind that in order to have more than one house, you're paying a higher sub fee for that alt. In a sense, they are paying for that extra house.

At the end of the day, we need to rally together to push for better housing, and not fight so hard to screw each other over out of saltiness or spite. This isn't an issue of the "haves and have nots", it's an issue of SE sitting on their hands knowing there is a problem, but the lot of us not doing anything to make them actually fix it, because we're all too busy infighting.

Edit: This popped up while I was typing I guess.

snip.

I both agree and disagree. I honestly think that the scarcity thing is pretty awful, and is a big part of why the housing issues are happening. The fact that it's a finite resource is what makes flippers such a monster, honestly ones I think are a bigger problem than the 'hoarders' people love to hate. Add into that, there are a lot of people that hold houses and do literally nothing with them, simply because they are a trophy, a 'rare' item that they have, and someone else doesn't. I have literally spoken to people with this mindset, luckily they quit and lost their house.

That being said, I do really like the rest of your post. While I think everyone should be able to get a house for every character they level to meet the requirements, I do think the wards should be left as is, as more a competitive vanity thing, either for the lawn decor, or just that ward feel some people actually like. I personally could take it or leave it, and honestly, if it weren't for gardens, I would be perfectly happy not having a yard to worry about; interior decor is more my jam.

[Jojoya]

This is still an SE made problem, and the only solution is to make housing an infinite resource rather than a finite one. Until people focus on pushing for that, SE will continue to do nothing while we all fight about everything else, thoroughly distracted.

I don't know that infinite housing is the correct solution. Part of what can make things desirable is scarcity.

Better to have a dual system.

First, a fully instanced system (not the current apartment system) that guarantees each player and FC one plot of their choosing. If the farm mentioned at Fan Fest isn't intended to give all players access to the gardening system regardless of house ownership, then gardening could get incorporated into the new instanced housing. Same with FC workshop. Outdoor item limits could be increased greatly for these instanced plots since the game would no longer be trying to also load items from neighboring houses. Being fully instanced, there would be no need for demolition so a player (or even a FC) could take a 6 month break and come back to their plot the same as they had left it. It's not a truly infinite system, it's just one that's flexible as the size of the player base changes.

Second, the ward system converted into a competitive system for those who consider housing their end game and are willing to pay for the privilege of obtaining additional plots. Purchases would be personal only since FCs would have their guaranteed plots with workshop access.

There would still be requirements and limits for the sake of fair competition. The player would have to have a character on a world that meets level and rank requirements to purchase and maintain houses on that world (no transferring one character world to world to buy up houses then leave the houses in the hands of a level 1 character). They could still put a limit on the number of ward houses that could be owned by an account (perhaps one per housing district per world). They could tighten demolition rules and/or add in monthly fees so ward houses are more likely to become available to other players instead of hoarded by a few.

This way housing is obtainable for everyone but still offers features to make it desirable as an end game for those who have a greater than normal interest in it.

[Penthea]

I wonder why people might think that... looks at original post

Looks like people might think you want things taken away from them because you said exactly that.

Why is it so difficult for you to understand that I am asking for what SE are more likely to do than for what they're exceptionally unlikely to do? Have you not heard of the phrase "lesser of two evils"? Or does this not apply to housing because that would mean vaguely agreeing with me?

Years, literal years, have shown us they're not leaving the ward system behind and they're not going to do an overhaul. Unless the community rally together in a wave like with the Shirogane launch the likelihood of getting a better housing system is near zero.

And no, grandfathered players losing houses won't personally suit me because I already am at the limit as to how much housing I can access, and I presently have no intention of relocating plots. I would have zero personal gain from them losing their houses. I am thinking of other players not as fortunate as I am but this has somehow become a novel concept here. It seems now most people are more interested in protecting the special circumstances of hoarders than thinking of the housing community as a whole. This has become a weird game of monopoly.

Sigh I suppose there will be more posts preaching at me to ask SE to do something better than remove grandfathering. Well I have to say to those people, why don't you make those threads? I cared enough about housing to make this one, do you not care enough about housing to make your own with your views and ideas? And if I think it's good, you'll see me there giving my support even if you are one of the people who strongly disagreed with me here.

I want everyone to have as many houses as they want. I just don't believe SE will ever put us in the position for this to happen. But if you want to fight for it, I'll fight for it with you.

You're assuming that the locks for instanced housing would be different than what we currently have, when they probably would not

We're both assuming considering a proper instanced house system literally doesn't exist in this game.