Moderate Latency (150~) + Impacts of Double Weaving

[lulunami]

You want to double weave on SMN in the opener for buff alignment later on in the fight (i.e. you want to Tri-Disaster and Deathflare with personal buffs and party buffs expiring at certain points in the rotation). Double weaving becomes less important later on, but it is still more optimal to do so if possible.

MCH is the worst job to play optimally with bad ping. I have 30-40 ms server latency and I notice immediately when I get a lag spike during Wildfire. Rapid Fire results in lots of GCD clipping if you start lagging.

You generally want to avoid high APM jobs that require double weaving such as BRD/NIN if you have very high latency. Jobs with less oGCDs and slower GCDs are more manageable. BLM can be okay with higher ping, but you may get weird MP tick or Astral Fire/Umbral Ice transition issues.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I personally prefer melees that is why I wanted to ask about DRG, also the fancy moves and armor is a nice bonus too.

In that case, I'll pass along the Crit opener. Ideally, you want below 700 SkS but even if you venture a little above that, it shouldn't impact you too much. If you do notice a fair bit of clipping, do Diversion pre-pull and delay your second Mirage Dive. And if you don't raiding, move Jump and Geirskogul back one GCD. Should help with the clipping.

[ChaoticCrimson]

I'll agree on SMN, in that it's a bit situational. You'll see double-weaving in a lot of openers, as suggested above, whether you start with all three Festers before a short DWT while double-weaving some OGCDs between Ruin II casts or quickly burning through Aetherflow with Fester/Painflare weaves. Outside of the opener though you'll pretty much only want to single-weave, though you could maybe get away with something like Rouse+Enkindle between casts, but probably best to avoid. Also, due to the way pets process the commands, it'll be impossible to double-weave Devotion+Enkindle, so bear that in mind. Those two absolutely must be spaced out between casts.

[Fannah]

No. This is what you're supposed to do: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

And just because you're using 1 ogcd between gcds with Rapid Fire doesn't mean it's easier because of this:
- 1.5 gcd + ogcd: 1.5 - 0.75 - 0.75 = 0s room for latency
- 2.5 gcd + 2x ogcd: 2.5 - 0.75 - 2 x 0.75 = 0.25s room for latency

If double weaving is a problem (and you do need to double weave in OHWF), Rapid Fire weaves are an even bigger problem.

Where did you get that one action is animation locked at 0.75sec?
The this is what i'm supposed to do leads me to a gigantic guide book, so please be more specific. "0.75" reasearch leads me to nothing, and Rapid Fire only leads me to "but since this is a shortened rotation it doesn’t actually result in further dps loss unless you have very low skill speed and lag a lot during Rapid Fire."
And laging or not doesn't change that you will still hit quicker than without Rapid Fire, so it's still a gain even with high ping. And too high ping is a loss anyway whatever the class you're playing.

[Kitfox]

The this is what i'm supposed to do leads me to a gigantic guide book, so please be more specific.

I linked a guide to proper rotations because you suggested that MCH only does single weaves during OHWF window, this is incorrect. You do 2x double weaves and 2-3x single weaves depending if you have Overload/Heartbreak ready. You also don't time your Reassemble on your proc, you time your procs on your Reassemble, which is always used at the same ogcd slot with the same timing. Because you "did not see any problem with it", I wanted to point out that there most definitely is a problem if you can't double weave, because you absolutely must, and that even the single weaves pose a problem most other classes don't have to worry about.

I think having the proper understanding of the class and the rotations is important before making assumptions such as yours, because they're exactly the reason why SE is unable to see the problems in their own class design and why the job is still broken after well over a year of updates to other classes.

Where did you get that one action is animation locked at 0.75sec?

Average animation lock for most abilities is around 0.70-0.75s in good latency conditions and it's the average most commonly used in theory crafting. It has been tested time and again, and you can gather evidence about it yourself by going through video footage. I had the small equations there to back up my argument that the single weaves during Rapid Fire are worse than double weaves, because your argument seemed to rely on the point that single weaves would somehow be easier to do than double weaves, this is incorrect under Rapid Fire.

...and Rapid Fire only leads me to "but since this is a shortened rotation it doesn’t actually result in further dps loss unless you have very low skill speed and lag a lot during Rapid Fire."

This quote has nothing to do with Rapid Fire and more to do with the gcd uptime lost due to FT+WF double weave, which is more like a triple weave when accounting for 2 ticks of FT.

And too high ping is a loss anyway whatever the class you're playing.

Obviously, but MCH doesn't even require a lot of lag to become unplayable, even the smallest amount has a very large effect compared to most other classes. There's also no way to adjust the rotation to single weaves due to how tight the Wildfire and Overheat windows are, while many other jobs can.

[XiXiQ]

I don't think it'd be 10% bad on blm. I can't think of any points in standard opener or rotation having double weaves.

It's 10% bad regardless of job/oCDs. I've tested on dummies at 110ms and 300ms, the difference was close to 15%. That didn't matter so much when people were doing 1100 dps, now it's 6k+ it's a huge gap. It takes X amount more time to send your commands, so you end up with less actions over the same time period. Doesn't matter if the actions are queued, the command still has to get to the server.

[Zerathor]

You likely had packet loss involved in that then. There are plenty of orange smn and blm that play at 250-300.

[XiXiQ]

No, I did the traces, no packet loss was involved. The big difference in my latency was due to a major undersea cable cut that took over a month to be repaired. This test was a like for like - same gear, same player, same rotations, same everything bar the latency involved (how good/bad I mght be wasn't a factor). I do hear the odd anecdote about how so-and-so performs miracle dodging at 500ms, but given the pure physics of the situation, that's not happening without pre-empting. It is possible some are so good they can still pull higher tier DPS, would be interesting to see the difference if they were sub-30, because there certainly would be a difference. I also suspect some people simply don't know their actual pings, particulary if it's measure on some website, where the pings are usually between point A and point B, rather than their own connection and point B. The real question to ask is how close they are to the server, that's what really makes the difference.

[lulunami]

It is unfortunate this game does not have a true latency (ping) monitor in game. One way to get an idea of what your ping in-game is by using Resource Monitor that is part of Microsoft Windows.





Apparently I am getting between 23 and 31 milliseconds of latency for ffxiv_dx11.exe.

[Fannah]

I linked a guide to proper rotations because you suggested that MCH only does single weaves during OHWF window, this is incorrect. You do 2x double weaves and 2-3x single weaves depending if you have Overload/Heartbreak ready.

Oh, there was a misunderstanding, I've quote your part about Rapid Fire before writing my part, and I just meant there was only one oGCD between each GCD of Rapid fire during the WF/OH window, I thought it was obvious x)
On my computer with my ping, I more feel it's like 0.6 sec, that's why I'm asking if your 0.75 was official or an average thing like you said.
I'll answer later to the other points, I don't have much time rn and mainly came now to clear the misunderstanding.