Tank Stance Redesign

[shao32]

No one said Defiance itself was or would be dull. They said being limited to JUST Defiance would be incredibly dull, just as SITTING in Defiance is now.

my question was why its gonna being dull if mechanically the job dont change at all, same buttoms same everything just less overall dps and more mitigation that you need, i ask that bcs im a person that enjoy the jobs for his gameplay not his numbers.

It is just something I have found after tanking for so long. Maybe at the highest level this is true but for more casual players it really helps inexperienced healers in more stressful situations and allows them to improve with putting out some damage too.

im being tank since 2.1 war rework, as my own experience this 5 years show me the skill of the healer is irrelevant for non savage content, if i have proper gear and use my job tools properly i can stand anything bcs outside of savage everything hit like a wet noodle, if a healer is having troubles to keep me up i highly doubt they will have the skill to push some dps bcs they will strugle on everything else.

[Shurrikhan]

my question was why its gonna being dull if mechanically the job dont change at all, same buttoms same everything just less overall dps and more mitigation that you need, i ask that bcs im a person that enjoy the jobs for his gameplay not his numbers.

Okay, but... numbers generate gameplay.

Do you dislike current Warrior gameplay, because it doesn't often enough encourage frequent enough or long enough uses of Defiance?

If not -- if you enjoy the gameplay -- that is the gameplay the numbers have created. Tuning is part of gameplay. It doesn't bar options entirely, but it does have a heavy-handed influence on the when and where of each.

[shao32]

Okay, but... numbers generate gameplay.

Do you dislike current Warrior gameplay, because it doesn't often enough encourage frequent enough or long enough uses of Defiance?

If not -- if you enjoy the gameplay -- that is the gameplay the numbers have created. Tuning is part of gameplay. It doesn't bar options entirely, but it does have a heavy-handed influence on the when and where of each.

probably my fault to dont formulate the question properly.

the endless comparation of tank stance vs dps stance performance its what bring us here i agree with that, im not asking why tank stances feels awful to play i know that by first hand, thats why im a cleary supported of removing it or rework it complety, again the question is why WAR, the job with less punishment mechanically and with the stronger tank stance of the game it feels in particular boring when is locked on defiance when DRK and PLD are just worse in everything, what make it particulary boring compared to the others when nothing changes except your numbers like the other 2.

[Ekimmak]

probably my fault to dont formulate the question properly.

the endless comparation of tank stance vs dps stance performance its what bring us here i agree with that, im not asking why tank stances feels awful to play i know that by first hand, thats why im a cleary supported of removing it or rework it complety, again the question is why WAR, the job with less punishment mechanically and with the stronger tank stance of the game it feels in particular boring when is locked on defiance when DRK and PLD are just worse in everything, what make it particulary boring compared to the others when nothing changes except your numbers like the other 2.

Maybe it's because Inner Beast feels so much less satisfying to see than triple buzz-saws of death?

[Shurrikhan]

probably my fault to dont formulate the question properly.

the endless comparation of tank stance vs dps stance performance its what bring us here i agree with that, im not asking why tank stances feels awful to play i know that by first hand, thats why im a cleary supported of removing it or rework it complety, again the question is why WAR, the job with less punishment mechanically and with the stronger tank stance of the game it feels in particular boring when is locked on defiance when DRK and PLD are just worse in everything, what make it particulary boring compared to the others when nothing changes except your numbers like the other 2.

I would not know, as I've never made that assertion myself that Defiance is any worse to be locked into than Shield Oath or Grit.

If I had to guess, though, it's likely because of that reduced opportunity cost to the swap itself, and the increased maximal opportunity cost (aside from BW-Delirium-DA-Quietus spam at over a dozen targets) of the tank stance when IB and SC's mitigation and self-healing go to waste (e.g. during Inner Release or 100 gauge + incoming Infuriate for a triple Fell Cleave). It's the tank that has the least reason to sit in the stance so long as it won't be immediately needed again (as it's not coughing up a GCD each swap) and it has the most to lose every 60/90 seconds.

[shao32]

I would not know, as I've never made that assertion myself that Defiance is any worse to be locked into than Shield Oath or Grit.

If I had to guess, though, it's likely because of that reduced opportunity cost to the swap itself, and the increased maximal opportunity cost (aside from BW-Delirium-DA-Quietus spam at over a dozen targets) of the tank stance when IB and SC's mitigation and self-healing go to waste (e.g. during Inner Release or 100 gauge + incoming Infuriate for a triple Fell Cleave). It's the tank that has the least reason to sit in the stance so long as it won't be immediately needed again (as it's not coughing up a GCD each swap) and it has the most to lose every 60/90 seconds.

i dont consider WAR have the least reasons to stay on defiance, considering the tank stance status and how affect all tanks in the same way, all of then have the exactly same reasons to don't waste time on it since all of then spend 25% of his dps in full stance uptime including burst windows, and the best think is WAR gets the most benefics from his tank stance bcs reasons.
thinking about it at this point i hope all tank stances get complety removed rather than reworked.

Maybe it's because Inner Beast feels so much less satisfying to see than triple buzz-saws of death?

every time i saw fell cleave i think WAR will have several back problems whe he/she gets old ^^

[Lyth]

Imagine that Defiance prevented you from using Inner Release. Or that Shield Oath prevented you from using Fight or Flight. What's more, imagine that switching stance mid-window terminated your offensive buffs.

That's basically what it's like to tank with Grit.

The nice thing about Defiance is that, through Unchained, you can gain the mitigation and enmity benefits of the stance for a brief time without any of its drawbacks. Consider this: if you removed tank stances, and instead had an Unchained style cooldown which gave you some sort of a defensive boost and your attacks increased enmity for its duration, you''d have essentially the same functionality that WAR has now.

You could even make it thematic. I've always felt that Bulwark was a bit lackluster. You could give PLD had something that say, gave them increased enmity, a higher block rate, and reduced the recast on Shield Swipe while active. Blood Price is similarly unimpressive on DRK. You could give them something akin to Dread Spikes.

Point is, tank stances don't have to be something that you just sit in. You really just need a cooldown that lets you grab initial enmity on the boss or newly spawned add, which perhaps smooths out a bit of damage while your team's burst window is up.

[Shurrikhan]

Imagine that Defiance prevented you from using Inner Release. Or that Shield Oath prevented you from using Fight or Flight. What's more, imagine that switching stance mid-window terminated your offensive buffs.

That's basically what it's like to tank with Grit.

The nice thing about Defiance is that, through Unchained, you can gain the mitigation and enmity benefits of the stance for a brief time without any of its drawbacks. Consider this: if you removed tank stances, and instead had an Unchained style cooldown which gave you some sort of a defensive boost and your attacks increased enmity for its duration, you''d have essentially the same functionality that WAR has now.

You could even make it thematic. I've always felt that Bulwark was a bit lackluster. You could give PLD had something that say, gave them increased enmity, a higher block rate, and reduced the recast on Shield Swipe while active. Blood Price is similarly unimpressive on DRK. You could give them something akin to Dread Spikes.

Honestly, I find even Blood Price to have more gameplay involvement than Dread Spikes. At least there's decision involved in how you spend that added mana. I just feel like it should be based on (would-be?) potency taken, rather than a flat amount per attack made against you, such that boss strikes could actually count for something. All it'd really need at that point is a less painfully penalized % damage-to-healing conversion from SE and AD.

But yes, I'll agree that the BP and BW stance-dependence, given Grit's current cost and clunkiness, feels awkward at best.