Tank Stance Redesign

[shao32]

I think you are leaving out the options that healers also have on dpsing. While it is true tanks that do damage bring more, tanks that stay defensive give the healers time to dish out a lot of damage without having to focus the full dps tank that is getting rocked. I have seen some healers pull some crazy numbers so I do believe that being a full defensive tank does not fall to far behind a aggressive dps tank. Which is why I mentioned that the stances could be fixed a bit cause I do agree they are not completely balanced but to say it is a poor play style is only looking at the tank itself. In regards to stance dancing when it comes to WAR a lot of our burst damage comes from IR so switching to Deliverance, popping a defensive and IR to dish out huge damage then going back into defiance so you can get caught up in health to go back to deliverance when you are ready again is 100% more viable than just staying in defiance the entire time.

The whole conception of if a tank stay on defensive stance allow healers to push more dps is wrong in all terms, you are free to check any fflogs and see the top healers have tanks with zero or near zero tank stance uptime, healers heals are to powerful as tanks mitigation tools and if both use they tools properly both tank and healer are able to push high dps, the DPS tank meta don't come at the cost of anything at contrary the turtle strat.

[Kyrph]

The whole conception of if a tank stay on defensive stance allow healers to push more dps is wrong in all terms, you are free to check any fflogs and see the top healers have tanks with zero or near zero tank stance uptime, healers heals are to powerful as tanks mitigation tools and if both use they tools properly both tank and healer are able to push high dps, the DPS tank meta don't come at the cost of anything at contrary the turtle strat.

It is just something I have found after tanking for so long. Maybe at the highest level this is true but for more casual players it really helps inexperienced healers in more stressful situations and allows them to improve with putting out some damage too.

[shao32]

No one said Defiance itself was or would be dull. They said being limited to JUST Defiance would be incredibly dull, just as SITTING in Defiance is now.

my question was why its gonna being dull if mechanically the job dont change at all, same buttoms same everything just less overall dps and more mitigation that you need, i ask that bcs im a person that enjoy the jobs for his gameplay not his numbers.

It is just something I have found after tanking for so long. Maybe at the highest level this is true but for more casual players it really helps inexperienced healers in more stressful situations and allows them to improve with putting out some damage too.

im being tank since 2.1 war rework, as my own experience this 5 years show me the skill of the healer is irrelevant for non savage content, if i have proper gear and use my job tools properly i can stand anything bcs outside of savage everything hit like a wet noodle, if a healer is having troubles to keep me up i highly doubt they will have the skill to push some dps bcs they will strugle on everything else.

[Shurrikhan]

my question was why its gonna being dull if mechanically the job dont change at all, same buttoms same everything just less overall dps and more mitigation that you need, i ask that bcs im a person that enjoy the jobs for his gameplay not his numbers.

Okay, but... numbers generate gameplay.

Do you dislike current Warrior gameplay, because it doesn't often enough encourage frequent enough or long enough uses of Defiance?

If not -- if you enjoy the gameplay -- that is the gameplay the numbers have created. Tuning is part of gameplay. It doesn't bar options entirely, but it does have a heavy-handed influence on the when and where of each.

[shao32]

Okay, but... numbers generate gameplay.

Do you dislike current Warrior gameplay, because it doesn't often enough encourage frequent enough or long enough uses of Defiance?

If not -- if you enjoy the gameplay -- that is the gameplay the numbers have created. Tuning is part of gameplay. It doesn't bar options entirely, but it does have a heavy-handed influence on the when and where of each.

probably my fault to dont formulate the question properly.

the endless comparation of tank stance vs dps stance performance its what bring us here i agree with that, im not asking why tank stances feels awful to play i know that by first hand, thats why im a cleary supported of removing it or rework it complety, again the question is why WAR, the job with less punishment mechanically and with the stronger tank stance of the game it feels in particular boring when is locked on defiance when DRK and PLD are just worse in everything, what make it particulary boring compared to the others when nothing changes except your numbers like the other 2.

[Ekimmak]

probably my fault to dont formulate the question properly.

the endless comparation of tank stance vs dps stance performance its what bring us here i agree with that, im not asking why tank stances feels awful to play i know that by first hand, thats why im a cleary supported of removing it or rework it complety, again the question is why WAR, the job with less punishment mechanically and with the stronger tank stance of the game it feels in particular boring when is locked on defiance when DRK and PLD are just worse in everything, what make it particulary boring compared to the others when nothing changes except your numbers like the other 2.

Maybe it's because Inner Beast feels so much less satisfying to see than triple buzz-saws of death?

[Shurrikhan]

probably my fault to dont formulate the question properly.

the endless comparation of tank stance vs dps stance performance its what bring us here i agree with that, im not asking why tank stances feels awful to play i know that by first hand, thats why im a cleary supported of removing it or rework it complety, again the question is why WAR, the job with less punishment mechanically and with the stronger tank stance of the game it feels in particular boring when is locked on defiance when DRK and PLD are just worse in everything, what make it particulary boring compared to the others when nothing changes except your numbers like the other 2.

I would not know, as I've never made that assertion myself that Defiance is any worse to be locked into than Shield Oath or Grit.

If I had to guess, though, it's likely because of that reduced opportunity cost to the swap itself, and the increased maximal opportunity cost (aside from BW-Delirium-DA-Quietus spam at over a dozen targets) of the tank stance when IB and SC's mitigation and self-healing go to waste (e.g. during Inner Release or 100 gauge + incoming Infuriate for a triple Fell Cleave). It's the tank that has the least reason to sit in the stance so long as it won't be immediately needed again (as it's not coughing up a GCD each swap) and it has the most to lose every 60/90 seconds.

[shao32]

I would not know, as I've never made that assertion myself that Defiance is any worse to be locked into than Shield Oath or Grit.

If I had to guess, though, it's likely because of that reduced opportunity cost to the swap itself, and the increased maximal opportunity cost (aside from BW-Delirium-DA-Quietus spam at over a dozen targets) of the tank stance when IB and SC's mitigation and self-healing go to waste (e.g. during Inner Release or 100 gauge + incoming Infuriate for a triple Fell Cleave). It's the tank that has the least reason to sit in the stance so long as it won't be immediately needed again (as it's not coughing up a GCD each swap) and it has the most to lose every 60/90 seconds.

i dont consider WAR have the least reasons to stay on defiance, considering the tank stance status and how affect all tanks in the same way, all of then have the exactly same reasons to don't waste time on it since all of then spend 25% of his dps in full stance uptime including burst windows, and the best think is WAR gets the most benefics from his tank stance bcs reasons.
thinking about it at this point i hope all tank stances get complety removed rather than reworked.

Maybe it's because Inner Beast feels so much less satisfying to see than triple buzz-saws of death?

every time i saw fell cleave i think WAR will have several back problems whe he/she gets old ^^