Tank Stance Redesign

[shao32]

If stances are removed and the rest of the kit ajusted so is no longer clunky or feel awul to use it will archive the same that reworking it, I believe is a valid option like the other, I preffer reworking the stances too or just remove the damage penalty bcs all the stuff about this is around the dps lost, but I'm open to remove it, anything is better that keep the tank community slip for this.

[Shurrikhan]

The point of contention was the idea that the game actively discourages tank stance when, actually, it comes from players themselves actively discouraging it's use.

When the game gives incentive to avoid something, and zero incentive to use it -- when already optimized (or even just performing decently) outside its use -- then the game discourages it as surely as it would discourage an inferior DPS rotation or using Cure I when mana is an absolute non-issue. That's not just a community thing. That's the game. Tuning will encourage or discourage what it makes optimal or inferior, respectively.

Whether it's a huge blow or not is a different issue altogether, and I don't think tanks should be required to pick up the slack for criminally underperforming DPS, but the fact doesn't change that there's simply not enough benefit to tank stance to warrant sitting in it. It's an option, but it's -- seemingly intentionally -- not a good one.

it's not hurting the % of players who can deal without

Technically, it is. That lost DPS can, in many a case, mean twice the party's HP over in additional raid damage, depending on phase pushes. It means that everyone else's dps has to be higher. Those are usually just as significant of risks as the tank dying from something that can be prevented by the sole addition of Grit, Defiance (+ GCDs to top off), or Shield Oath, if not more so.

It basically boils down to an elitist argument. "I can do it without tank stance so why can't you?". "Just delete tank stance" Does it really matter if someone wants to sit in tank stance the entire encounter? Does it really matter?

Depends on the fight. But with 70 levels to learn how and when to use and not to use tank stance, it's not particularly elitist, either. No more than expecting proper rotation from DPS and little more than weaving in healer damage.

But to argue that tank stances should be removed is opinion based on ego alone. Image alone. If you don't need it or don't want it, then don't use it. Remember the last time SE catered to the high-end players? It nearly destroyed the game.

Alone? I highly doubt that. You do not speak for the people arguing against maintaining tank stance's presence as is. And why should you -- your opinion clearly differs? So why pretend to know the intricacies of theirs?

I for one want to see tank stances adjusted as to make room for additional active mitigation decisions and playflow. I personally find that the current version of tank stance is likely restricting both. It remains too powerful an option to allow for significant woven AM, while too weak relative to forgoing it to see much use. That is a worst-of-both-worlds trade to me. I want tank stance adjusted, or even removed, because I want to see more mitigation choice, depth, and control, with fewer lockouts by CD or GCD cost. Does that reek of ego to you?

[whiskeybravo]

The reason I word it like that is because you don't really see the "casual" playerbase echoing these concerns. It seems like the desires for change in mitigation choice, depth, control, etc etc stem from a desire to overhaul the battle system itself. IE, I don't think changing tank stances alone accomplish that without a fundamental change to the system. Trying to do too much through one type of change.

it's not hurting the % of players who can deal without

I should've worded that as "% of tank players". My apologies.

I mean, if we just out right deleted tank stance right now it's not going to affect me, or you, or *high random % of players on the forums*. We go without it right now. Nothing really changes unless you overhaul the whole system and take away our plethora of mitigation options. It's there for people that need it, or think they need it, or want it. I just don't see what's wrong with that.

Short of that, battles could be changed so that tank stance is more required. Bosses that hit hard outside of busters instead of hitting like wet noodles. Or maybe more busters so we simply don't have enough 1-button CDs to CD them all. That changes how we perceive tank stance without changing the stances at all. The problem with this if it's "brutally" hard to keep tanks alive we won't see as many people tanking, and maybe not even as many healers. So it all has to be balanced around making it simple enough for the majority to enjoy while pleasing the minority *enough* to keep them interested.

[Grimoire-M]

It's funny bcs WAR is the only one that can enjoy his full kit with a minimum lose thanks to unchained windows and his core dps come from IR, if DRK or PLD want to do that his performance will be doom on that try, and even with all that's advantages using defiance kit on raids is bad.

Yes, WAR's stance swapping mechanic is good, and they're the best DPS tank. That's their role.

However, DRK and PLD do not rely on their healers to mitigate damage for them. If they turn their respective tank stances on, they have more effective HP than a WAR does, in that moment. A WAR has to heal himself with some combination of Inner Beast/Storm's Path/Thrill of Battle/Equilibrium to get the effective HP they need, and that might not be enough. When it comes to consistent auto damage they do have an advantage with a WHM/Diurnal AST in being able to snapshot the healing bonus while swapping to Deliverance, but that kind of swapping is not necessary, nor is it really effective mid-combat. At best you can use it in the opener and after any invul phases for a slight advantage.

I don't think it would be absurd to bake a bloodbath effect into WAR's defiance stance assuming that tanks were going to take more auto attack damage in the next expansion. 10-20% of all damage dealt converted to HP, halved on AoE. I get that Inner Beast/Path heal a fair amount already once set up but this would be a decent alternative for more sustained damage that doesn't really change much about how WAR is played. It gives them another option to help keep themselves alive when the healers are busy, and a reason to use Unchained as a minor tanking cooldown that's not overpowered by any means but helpful in specific situations where you'd like the extra padding.

[shao32]

Yes, WAR's stance swapping mechanic is good, and they're the best DPS tank. That's their role.

However, DRK and PLD do not rely on their healers to mitigate damage for them. If they turn their respective tank stances on, they have more effective HP than a WAR does, in that moment. A WAR has to heal himself with some combination of Inner Beast/Storm's Path/Thrill of Battle/Equilibrium to get the effective HP they need, and that might not be enough. When it comes to consistent auto damage they do have an advantage with a WHM/Diurnal AST in being able to snapshot the healing bonus while swapping to Deliverance, but that kind of swapping is not necessary, nor is it really effective mid-combat. At best you can use it in the opener and after any invul phases for a slight advantage.

you underestimate a lot the power of equilibrium, right now my war have 67.796 hp, on defiance i have 84.745, the diference of hp is 16.949 and equilibrium heal me by 15.830 with a chance to become a crit of over 24k, equilibrium alone cover perfectly this flaw.

I don't think it would be absurd to bake a bloodbath effect into WAR's defiance stance assuming that tanks were going to take more auto attack damage in the next expansion. 10-20% of all damage dealt converted to HP, halved on AoE. I get that Inner Beast/Path heal a fair amount already once set up but this would be a decent alternative for more sustained damage that doesn't really change much about how WAR is played. It gives them another option to help keep themselves alive when the healers are busy, and a reason to use Unchained as a minor tanking cooldown that's not overpowered by any means but helpful in specific situations where you'd like the extra padding.

its actually really absurd especially bcs you dont know if thats true and even if that happen WAR have a lot of free selfheals alone while DRK have none outside of grit and PLD have one that cost mp and GCD to use with is a masive dps loss, for the other side PLD have pasive block, WAR staying on defiance means regular inner beast that adds 20% mitigation pretty much consistent at the rate WAR generate resources, tested to my current gear takes 10-11 seconds to build 50 gauge for 1 innerbeast with this one is 6 seconds of 20% and this without having in mind infuriate and IR, discounting upheaval this means WAR can have inner beast up 6 seconds every 25 seconds more or less, more inner beast with infuriate use and of course IR, defiance is pretty broken in terms of mitigation but nobody cares bcs its a dps lost and all this is unnecesary for any encounter, if tomorrow SE make mandatory tank stanceswithout changing northing more WAR will be op.

and all of this without mention the parry bonus of having you gauge high, the extra heals and the innumerable CDs with such short recast and long duration, oh and unchained to get extra dps

Defiance is the worst stance because you receive less healing from almost every source of healing. Spells like Cure are slightly less effective because it's a 20% healing buff and not 25%. Abilities like Tetra, Assize, Essential Dignity, Collective Unconcious, Excog and Whispering Dawn are all significantly less effective on a WAR because they don't get buffed by Defiance at all. The only sources of healing that aren't weaker are Benediction and Benison because they're percentage based. Even though a tankbuster will hit a WAR in Defiance and a PLD in Shield Oath for the same percentage of their HP, it takes more to heal the WAR afterwards. That's becoming a bigger problem as each expansion adds more and more abilities instead of spells.

calling defiance the worst with only having in mind the stance effect its with all my respect a pretty poor argument, Defiance is not only a 25% HP and 20% heals of certain skills, is inner beast, steel ciclone and equilibrium, WAR alone will take better shields and regens, inner beast will add extra mitigation of his already incredible powerful defensive skill set and equilibrium with is up every 60 seconds will cover any extra damage on every tank buster the game trow at you, all this combine surpass the 20% mitigation of grit and shield.

[MeriAngel]

I think you are wrong, articulate but wrong.
I need FF to take away DPS from Tanks and Healers in dg's. If your DPSing then your not a tank, by default. If you are going to do this, then whats the point of DPS classes? Your job is to sacrifice your DPS for the safety of the party. Yes? No?
I mean it is in the name "TANK."
I truly do not mean this to be rude- but then go melee DPS.
My 2 cents~

[Caiht]

I honestly agree with this. Every other mmo gets it better then we do here. A tanks job is to tank. If not you are just a dragoon with more health. They have no purpose being a dps and it seems to only be causing everyone more stress.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

I think you are wrong, articulate but wrong.
I need FF to take away DPS from Tanks and Healers in dg's. If your DPSing then your not a tank, by default. If you are going to do this, then whats the point of DPS classes? Your job is to sacrifice your DPS for the safety of the party. Yes? No?
I mean it is in the name "TANK."
I truly do not mean this to be rude- but then go melee DPS.
My 2 cents~

Then we need FF to teach most of the DPS how to actually DPS in a dungeon...

Removing DPS from tanks and healers will just destroy the majority of the player base that still play tanks and healers...considerably less than those playing DPS, so have fun waiting in those extra long queues if a suggestion like this was taken seriously.
It would mean stripping them of the majority of their current kit, you'd end up with heal bots and one combo tanks, and 8 man content would become a joke.
Even though current designs of tanks and healers aren't perfect, still a damn sight better than healers only heal and tanks only tank, nonsense.

[Kyrph]

I think what it boils down to that the stances brings to the table is choice and skill capping. I mainly play WAR so most of what I am saying comes from that perspective. It is perfectly fine if you want to play the tank role solely as a defensive tank by staying in tank stance throughout a dungeon or boss so you barely take any damage and never have to worry about enmity problems. However by giving the tanks a dps stance as well, you open the opportunity for players that choose to try to maximize the role a bit further by putting out a decent amount of damage as well. I don't see the problem with that at all and why people argue that tanks shouldn't do damage is beyond me when it is very rewarding to properly stance dance and push a lot of damage to help kill things quicker. Although I do believe the stances could be worked on a bit more so that stance dancing feels a bit more fluent I do not believe they should get rid of stance entirely and anyone that plays a tank shouldn't want that as well.

[shao32]

I honestly agree with this. Every other mmo gets it better then we do here. A tanks job is to tank. If not you are just a dragoon with more health. They have no purpose being a dps and it seems to only be causing everyone more stress.

Tanking and dpsing are not mutual exclusive, a tank can dealt a big chunk of damage and don't create any stress on others if being played properly and that's pretty fine, the problem is tanking itself is easy and when you cover that you only have to do dps and tank stances are in the way.

I think what it boils down to that the stances brings to the table is choice and skill capping. I mainly play WAR so most of what I am saying comes from that perspective. It is perfectly fine if you want to play the tank role solely as a defensive tank by staying in tank stance throughout a dungeon or boss so you barely take any damage and never have to worry about enmity problems. However by giving the tanks a dps stance as well, you open the opportunity for players that choose to try to maximize the role a bit further by putting out a decent amount of damage as well. I don't see the problem with that at all and why people argue that tanks shouldn't do damage is beyond me when it is very rewarding to properly stance dance and push a lot of damage to help kill things quicker. Although I do believe the stances could be worked on a bit more so that stance dancing feels a bit more fluent I do not believe they should get rid of stance entirely and anyone that plays a tank shouldn't want that as well.

It will be true if turtle tanking offer equivalent benefics to agresive tanking, they don't, agresive tanking offers a lot more benefict to the party transforming this choice to good play vs poor play, there is no stance Dancing, or you stay out or you stay in, the middle ground is almost as bad as staying full stance on, it's not fine being defensive when you can do a lot more with using your tools properly and pusing you dps further with that, choices never work in mmos, the only way to make tanks work better is letting be defensive and dealt a good chunk of damage (properly balanced of course with DPS) so everyone will be happy and the role will be more straight forward, not like now where turtles hurt themself and they party's for this poor desing.