Tank Stance Redesign

[whiskeybravo]

“Many people dedicate their lives to actualizing a concept of what they should be like, rather than actualizing themselves. This difference between self-actualization and self-image actualization is very important. Most people live only for their image.”

-Bruce Lee

I'm all for DRK/PLD getting some adjustments to their tank stances to make them as fluid as WAR. But to argue that tank stances should be removed is opinion based on ego alone. Image alone. If you don't need it or don't want it, then don't use it. Remember the last time SE catered to the high-end players? It nearly destroyed the game.

As for the OP's suggestion of changes. All that's really going on is making it "less bad" to switch to tank stance. We don't have damage output reduction but the stances aren't as powerful either so there's really less reason to use them. I personally don't see the problem with trading power for mitigation, especially if the situation calls for it. The only real problem we have is that it's not an equal trade-off for all tanks. Make sword/shield swap like defiance/deliverance, no mp cost. No MP cost on Grit. All at 10 sec lockout. Done. It's there for people who want/need and literally nothing changes for those who don't. The damage penalty needs to remain in place so it's not abused.

[Shurrikhan]

The point of contention was the idea that the game actively discourages tank stance when, actually, it comes from players themselves actively discouraging it's use.

When the game gives incentive to avoid something, and zero incentive to use it -- when already optimized (or even just performing decently) outside its use -- then the game discourages it as surely as it would discourage an inferior DPS rotation or using Cure I when mana is an absolute non-issue. That's not just a community thing. That's the game. Tuning will encourage or discourage what it makes optimal or inferior, respectively.

Whether it's a huge blow or not is a different issue altogether, and I don't think tanks should be required to pick up the slack for criminally underperforming DPS, but the fact doesn't change that there's simply not enough benefit to tank stance to warrant sitting in it. It's an option, but it's -- seemingly intentionally -- not a good one.

it's not hurting the % of players who can deal without

Technically, it is. That lost DPS can, in many a case, mean twice the party's HP over in additional raid damage, depending on phase pushes. It means that everyone else's dps has to be higher. Those are usually just as significant of risks as the tank dying from something that can be prevented by the sole addition of Grit, Defiance (+ GCDs to top off), or Shield Oath, if not more so.

It basically boils down to an elitist argument. "I can do it without tank stance so why can't you?". "Just delete tank stance" Does it really matter if someone wants to sit in tank stance the entire encounter? Does it really matter?

Depends on the fight. But with 70 levels to learn how and when to use and not to use tank stance, it's not particularly elitist, either. No more than expecting proper rotation from DPS and little more than weaving in healer damage.

But to argue that tank stances should be removed is opinion based on ego alone. Image alone. If you don't need it or don't want it, then don't use it. Remember the last time SE catered to the high-end players? It nearly destroyed the game.

Alone? I highly doubt that. You do not speak for the people arguing against maintaining tank stance's presence as is. And why should you -- your opinion clearly differs? So why pretend to know the intricacies of theirs?

I for one want to see tank stances adjusted as to make room for additional active mitigation decisions and playflow. I personally find that the current version of tank stance is likely restricting both. It remains too powerful an option to allow for significant woven AM, while too weak relative to forgoing it to see much use. That is a worst-of-both-worlds trade to me. I want tank stance adjusted, or even removed, because I want to see more mitigation choice, depth, and control, with fewer lockouts by CD or GCD cost. Does that reek of ego to you?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I'm all for DRK/PLD getting some adjustments to their tank stances to make them as fluid as WAR. But to argue that tank stances should be removed is opinion based on ego alone. Image alone. If you don't need it or don't want it, then don't use it. Remember the last time SE catered to the high-end players? It nearly destroyed the game.

This is extremely disingenuous. For one, Gordias failed because they didn't properly tune it. Even the best players in the world couldn't clear Manipulator until week five, not because of skill but the fight simply being gear gated. They needed their weapons to have a chance, which is absurdly high. Secondly, many people screaming everything was super easy were actually casual players who say Coil go down in under a week and assumed it was a pushover. All that aside, a far bigger contributor to the game failing were the lack of basic QoL features. No CD resets upon wipe caused needlessly waiting around. No PF meant the raid recruitment pool was decidedly low, thus making it much more difficult to find groups at similar prog levels. And perhaps the biggest factor, 3.1 was a dumpster fire of a patch, leaving the game with virtually nothing for almost nine months.

People love to blame Gordias for everything, but they seemingly forget all we had in 3.1 was Void Ark, a raid so easy even the devs acknowledged as much, LoV and Diadem. You add that all up, plus the aforementioned and that's why the game suffered so much.

I think you are wrong, articulate but wrong.
I need FF to take away DPS from Tanks and Healers in dg's. If your DPSing then your not a tank, by default. If you are going to do this, then whats the point of DPS classes? Your job is to sacrifice your DPS for the safety of the party. Yes? No?
I mean it is in the name "TANK."
I truly do not mean this to be rude- but then go melee DPS.
My 2 cents~

Then the devs need to make content hit significantly harder because if I'm locked into tank stance yet dungeons remain a tickle fest, I'll just stop tanking. Likewise, Swallow's Compass is so laughably easy to heal, I have legitimately healed with nothing except Regen. So... what am I supposed to do in this scenario? Go AFK watching Netflix until the tank finally takes enough damage Cure II's worth casting? Once again, the community mindset is a byproduct of how undertuned content is. When I can do wall to wall pulls without Grit, why am I going to bother gimping myself by 20%? I would love to feel more like a tank in this game but the design philosophy makes it so I'm more an extremely buffed DPS because the devs are terrified of making things too hard for people who struggle to press Surecast and Medica II at the same time.

I can guarantee you one thing. DPS queues could increase astronomically if they simply locked out DPS on non-damage dealers. People willing to play either role, especially healers would plummet. And seeing how easy it is to cap tomes nowadays, I simply wouldn't even look at roulettes. The whole reason the devs didn't do this with Cleric Stance despite disliking how aggressive we play is because they know exactly what would happen.