Can we discuss how abusive the GM department is when it comes to 'Grief Tactics'? A

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

If the early puller credit is wiped, oh well. You won't see any sympathy from me. I guess is the solution is for the spawners to keep all s rank spawns a secret if you want to take that stance. Let's watch the salt flow from the wider community.
And just because it's GM stance now doesn't mean we can't petition to get that changed. We are the paying customers after all and rules and laws change all the time.

Keeping hunts a secret and doing them with your own party solo is pretty much how the developers intended for hunts to be done from the beginning, so have fun! It might even inspire the community to go hunt more on their own. But resetting a mob someone has pulled in general, not just with hunts falls under griefing, so I doubt they're going to make an exception purely for hunts.

And if they did, how would it even be administered? No matter how long you wait, it's always going to be an "early pull" for someone. Does the guy who was super late get to report for early pulling because he took 4 minutes to get there when everyone else took 1? Does every S rank that spawns need to have a GM present who'll declare when enough "time" has passed for people to pull? You'll find yourself a lot happier if you simply say "ehh, I missed this one, I'll just be quicker next time." it's what I do and I don't have a fiber of salt in my being towards hunts.

[Thamorian]

Keeping hunts a secret and doing them with your own party solo is pretty much how the developers intended for hunts to be done from the beginning, so have fun! It might even inspire the community to go hunt more on their own. But resetting a mob someone has pulled in general, not just with hunts falls under griefing, so I doubt they're going to make an exception purely for hunts.

And if they did, how would it even be administered? No matter how long you wait, it's always going to be an "early pull" for someone. Does the guy who was super late get to report for early pulling because he took 4 minutes to get there when everyone else took 1? Does every S rank that spawns need to have a GM present who'll declare when enough "time" has passed for people to pull? You'll find yourself a lot happier if you simply say "ehh, I missed this one, I'll just be quicker next time." it's what I do and I don't have a fiber of salt in my being towards hunts.

You on the wrong subject. We aren't talking about punishing early pullers. We are talking about how GM should not punish those who reset. How would that get administered? By not punishing people who reset after someone else pulled early.
And just FYI, main hunt groups on my server who spawn 99% of the S ranks decided they would give 2 minutes and for the most part, people don't have a problem waiting 2 minutes before pulling and know they usually have 2 minutes to get to the hunt if they are responding to a callout. It's usually the same 2 or 3 people that responded to a callout that will pull early.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

You on the wrong subject. We aren't talking about punishing early pullers. We are talking about how GM should not punish those who reset.

My 3rd sentence says resetting any mob someone else has pulled in this game can fall under griefing/disruption. This includes hunts as previous topics and previous GM posts have attested to. They're not gonna make an exception for hunts as their stance & the OP's post have shown. A better solution is to ask Square to redesign hunts so early pulling isn't an issue.

Unless of course, you want to make resetting mobs in general an unreportable offense, in which case I'll be the first to laugh when the next "kill strong mobs" esque unlock quest has people resetting mobs left and right by trolls who get a kick of it.

[Thamorian]

My 3rd sentence says resetting any mob someone else has pulled in this game can fall under griefing/disruption. This includes hunts as previous topics and previous GM posts have attested to. They're not gonna make an exception for hunts as their stance & the OP's post have shown. A better solution is to ask Square to redesign hunts so early pulling isn't an issue.

Unless of course, you want to make resetting mobs in general an unreportable offense, in which case I'll be the first to laugh when the next "kill strong mobs" esque unlock quest has people resetting mobs left and right by trolls who get a kick of it.

Rules and laws are not something that can never change. If enough players wanted that rule change, SE would change their stance on a rule. As an example, players used to get banned from these forums for talking about and linking parses. Now people are able to talk about parses without being banned. And I would love it if SE re-designed hunts so early pulling was not an issue and would prefer that but I see a less of a chance of that happening over GM changing their stance on hunt resetting. Policy change vs re-coding how hunts work.

[JunseiKei]

"Difference of playstyle" is a nebulous term that basically allows people to kick whomever they want for whatever reason they want. I could legitimately kick you for having an ugly glamour and there is nothing you can do about it.

TBH, if I was kicked for seemingly no reason, you better believe I'd report it for grief as it'd be impeding my progress and enjoyment of the game. I'd probably get a GM asking me what happened, provide player names, times, instance, etc. Then it'd be up to those kicking players to back up their kick. If a GM ever saw conversation of "I don't like their glamour, kick them," "I didn't like their playstyle (maybe no dragon sight for them and complaining about it?)," I'd like to think those players would be served a warning in the very least. Players can kick for whatever reasons, but I sincerely hope there's consequences for the abuse when it actually is being abused.

You on the wrong subject. We aren't talking about punishing early pullers. We are talking about how GM should not punish those who reset. How would that get administered? By not punishing people who reset after someone else pulled early.
And just FYI, main hunt groups on my server who spawn 99% of the S ranks decided they would give 2 minutes and for the most part, people don't have a problem waiting 2 minutes before pulling and know they usually have 2 minutes to get to the hunt if they are responding to a callout. It's usually the same 2 or 3 people that responded to a callout that will pull early.

TBH, a while back, I solo spawned Safat (literally had only been myself and 3 low level questers in the span on 2 hours on Coerthas), shouted it and waited for my party only before pulling (which did not fill right away and probably took around 3 minutes from call to actually get there). I'd have been mad if someone had reset it. Loads of people were angry at the "early pull," shouting to reset it and blacklist me from hunt linkshells (was in 7 already, never got removed because I was one of the major spawners then), but from what I've read from your own posts, I was within my 'right' to pull the boss since I spawned it. However, the resetters (who would definitely be leeching as I've said, I did the spawning solo) wouldn't be getting punished, even if I lost all credit I had on the boss and somehow (for the sake of this post) received minimal credit (or even 0 credit).

(Which since that day, any Safat that I've come across or spawned solo, I've killed alone or with one other person. I still report the kills, at least.)

I dropped hunts altogether after it felt like I spent more time waiting on people to get there for a hunt that lived only 30 seconds (if even that long) after pull than actually playing the game.

[Paladinleeds]

TBH, if I was kicked for seemingly no reason, you better believe I'd report it for grief as it'd be impeding my progress and enjoyment of the game. I'd probably get a GM asking me what happened, provide player names, times, instance, etc. Then it'd be up to those kicking players to back up their kick. If a GM ever saw conversation of "I don't like their glamour, kick them," "I didn't like their playstyle (maybe no dragon sight for them and complaining about it?)," I'd like to think those players would be served a warning in the very least. Players can kick for whatever reasons, but I sincerely hope there's consequences for the abuse when it actually is being abused.

Nope, there isn't. They don't ask about it. They just slide it under the rug as "Difference in Playstyle". Absolutely no consequences unless they were abusive before kicking you. I got kicked once for explaining that we lost the limit break pulling a boss and that was why I said to use it before pull. Reported, got treat as "Difference in playstyle" and that the GMs couldn't do anything about it.

[JunseiKei]

Nope, there isn't. They don't ask about it. They just slide it under the rug as "Difference in Playstyle". Absolutely no consequences unless they were abusive before kicking you. I got kicked once for explaining that we lost the limit break pulling a boss and that was why I said to use it before pull. Reported, got treat as "Difference in playstyle" and that the GMs couldn't do anything about it.

I actually feel sorry for you, then (as well as anyone else that gets that response back), as I've had a much better experience with GMs and not had a kick that resulted in my time being lost simply sit at "difference in play-style" and that was that. It's happened about three times only, I've never had a GM say that, only they are going to investigate after asking me a few questions, but cannot say what will happen at the end of their investigation. None of the times were these other players abusive towards me, either, just a random kick after going part-way or right up 'til the final boss and then receiving a kick (though every single one of those I reported, I told the GM I noticed looking up the players on lodestone that they were all in the same FC).

Not saying something was done, either, as I'd have no way to know, only that I've yet to encounter a GM that did not 1) ask me a bunch of questions for what I was reporting and 2) say they would conduct an investigation. Even though I've only had three encounters with wrongful removal, I've had other reasons to contact GMs in game.

[kikix12]

(...)just a random kick after going part-way or right up 'til the final boss and then receiving a kick (though every single one of those I reported, I told the GM I noticed looking up the players on lodestone that they were all in the same FC).

Going partway, and even more, going to the final boss and kicking, simply cannot fall under the "difference in playstyle" unless there WAS interaction before it. If a player played so differently that they would be kicked, why go with them through most of the dungeon and kick them only before the final boss?! That is clearly done maliciously. By the time the first boss dies, a player should know what to expect from another and it's the latest I'd consider it reasonable for a muted "gameplay difference" kick.


As for the hunts, there are many facets to the issue.

First, a player may have no chance of getting credit (sorry, 1 tomestone is not really a "reward") if there will be a lot of people gathering. That's several minutes wasted waiting, possibly two or three wasted killing the thing.

Second, the player may not even know about anything like that. I can tell you that I absolutely do not know the difference between A and S rank. If I see a mob, I can tell that it's a hunt higher than B...and that's about all. I don't even really know exactly how they are spawned or the mechanics of spawning (timers and what not). I just know that it happens and I suspect that it have something to do with clearing FATES. There may be players that know even less. To them, if someone ups and resets the mob they pulled then just stand there, it really LOOKS like being jerks. Especially since I can see a flood of abuse towards them for the early pull to follow.

Third, you do not "spawn the S rank" and you do not "have it". You may put forth effort into doing whatever it is that spawns them...but so may have others done, unknowingly. Especially if it is FATE dependent. Someone may do most of the work, then you come and "finish it"...and why are you supposed to be the "boss of the spawn"?! If that player that did unknowingly most of the job is solo and won't have party, he may not get credit if people will pop up and mob the hunt down, he may not even get anything from doing most of the work, even if he could actually solo it otherwise. You are barring him from doing that.

Fourth...in a way, by force-spawning hunts which seem to have time limits, you are actually preventing many people from ever doing them. There are those that can only play two, three hours a day. And it may so happen that the spawn will always be outside of those windows if done "at first opportunity". So if your method of force-spawning them at your convenience prevents players from enjoying the hunts altogether...what gives you the right to get on your high horse in the first place?!

(Whoa...yeah. Just checked the spawn methods. Most are actually rather easy and may happen simply over the course of the game from people randomly doing their jobs, others are more obscure. But the timers can very much prevent some people from ever seeing any spawn with the forced spawning.)

[alimdia]

Keeping hunts a secret and doing them with your own party solo is pretty much how the developers intended for hunts to be done from the beginning, so have fun! It might even inspire the community to go hunt more on their own. But resetting a mob someone has pulled in general, not just with hunts falls under griefing, so I doubt they're going to make an exception purely for hunts.

And if they did, how would it even be administered? No matter how long you wait, it's always going to be an "early pull" for someone. Does the guy who was super late get to report for early pulling because he took 4 minutes to get there when everyone else took 1? Does every S rank that spawns need to have a GM present who'll declare when enough "time" has passed for people to pull? You'll find yourself a lot happier if you simply say "ehh, I missed this one, I'll just be quicker next time." it's what I do and I don't have a fiber of salt in my being towards hunts.

I just want to say that whatever the devs intended doesn't have to be written in stone. I mean, look at Eureka. They intended us to play a certain way with the first map, and because we decided to play a different way they neutered the way we chose to play in the second map just to try to force their view of how it should be played. I think devs should be open to change how content is played if the entire community is doing it in a different way.

A forced stat scaling or level sync is very long overdue.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

I just want to say that whatever the devs intended doesn't have to be written in stone. I mean, look at Eureka. They intended us to play a certain way with the first map, and because we decided to play a different way they neutered the way we chose to play in the second map just to try to force their view of how it should be played. I think devs should be open to change how content is played if the entire community is doing it in a different way.

A forced stat scaling or level sync is very long overdue.

so.. make them fates? BUT WAIT, PEOPLE HATE FATES!