What exactly IS a White Mage?

[Acidblood]

... WHMs core kit is significantly better suited for the non-savage raids or non-extreme trials where mechanics won't flatten players immediately and the GCD heals will have more significance.

...

...now look at that list above and you'll see what those strengths mean to any uncoordinated PuG group, trap farm PFs, DFing for weeky loots in Omega or Ivalice, new players who don't understand mechanics, etc. etc.

...

TLDR: WHM isn't a weak job. WHMs role as a healer is heavy and sustainable HPS. WHMs strengths, however, don't fit the high tier coordinated raid groups.

I know this is more playstyle preference, but even in 'uncoordinated' / non-savage content I feel like WHM is lacking in several areas...

1. With no AoE shields or mitigation, as a WHM it feels like all you can do most of the time is wait and react (and WHM isn't even very good at that; see 2.)... both SCH and AST can shield (at will) and mitigate (not to mention have their own versions of regen), which, IMO, gives them both a much more pro-active playstyle, and as the saying goes, prevention is better than cure.

2. WHM lacks flexibility and usage of instant cast / oGCD abilities... Maybe it's just playing SCH for most of 4.X but being able to Lustrate (1s) up to 3 people back-to-back or pop Indom (20s) while moving (up to 3 shared times per 45s) is far more useful and flexible than Tetra (60/40s), Bene (180s), and Assize (60/40s) (so 1, sometimes 2, single target and 1 AoE per 40s at best)... and in chaotic PuGs being able to instantly heal as needed (and for significant amounts) is often a literal lifesaver.

3. WHM just feels like more work (AST too I guess)... yes WHM can have 100% regen up time (compared to SCH 33%), but it's a constant pain to keep up for what may only be 1 or 2 players getting hit when they shouldn't be... Say what you like about SCH fairy, but as spot healers they are absolutely pro and can save you a lot of GCDs.

4. Even Holy doesn't feel like enough anymore... In 3.X I used to love WHM due to Regen + Holy spam... but with SCH getting the likes of Excogitation, AST getting Earthly Star, and WHM getting Lilies :facepalm: .... yeah, sorry, but WHM lost 4.X (badly) in terms of fun / useful tools.

TLDR; IMO 4.X WHM just isn't really good for much of anything outside of shear healing throughput over time, and that's just not something even the 'uncoordinated' encounters of FFXIV demand very much of.

WHM needs an identity, and an overhaul to match it, but until the devs give SCH a real weakness and stop making AST a clone with extras (or change up the healing paradigm) I'm not sure WHM will ever see much daylight again.

[Neela]

I know this is more playstyle preference, but even in 'uncoordinated' / non-savage content I feel like WHM is lacking in several areas...

1. With no AoE shields or mitigation, as a WHM it feels like all you can do most of the time is wait and react (and WHM isn't even very good at that; see 2.)... both SCH and AST can shield (at will) and mitigate (not to mention have their own versions of regen), which, IMO, gives them both a much more pro-active playstyle, and as the saying goes, prevention is better than cure.

im not with u on this point...out of savage whm is actually the most comfortable healer for dps... you can simple stack up 2-3 reg-skills, shield with DB pre pull and react with tetra, assis or bene if needed - but yet alone those 3 reg skills without the ogcd-support provide massiv time to dps... I honestly can't follow your arguments for sch and ast here. savage/trials is another story tho... but dngs? whm is more than good to go for ini runs : o

[Grimoire-M]

im not with u on this point...out of savage whm is actually the most comfortable healer for dps... you can simple stack up 2-3 reg-skills, shield with DB pre pull and react with tetra, assis or bene if needed - but yet alone those 3 reg skills without the ogcd-support provide massiv time to dps... I honestly can't follow your arguments for sch and ast here. savage/trials is another story tho... but dngs? whm is more than good to go for ini runs : o

The only thing WHM has going for it in Dungeons is Holy. Every other healer has better tools in a dungeon outside of that one niche, and AST treads on it well enough with CO. None of their healing or mitigation cooldowns disappear just because they're solo. For all my complaints about SCH not having an AoE stun, the more I play it the easier it gets to compensate for even the worst tanks in that content, because I'm not panicking and over-leaning on Lustrate when spacing it out with Adlo/physick will do.

Holy makes easy mode content even more easy mode. It has almost no bearing on raids unless SE actually pushes on AoE, which they have actively tried to avoid after people complained about Gordias, not realizing that A1/2S were actually fine in terms of design, just not numbers.

[Ghishlain]

Can we not talk about dungeons?

Dungeons was the excuse for heavensward 3.4 WHM too.

So can we just accept that dungeon performance has no bearing on a class's viability, and talk about stuff that does impact viability?

Out of curiosity, which type of content and metric would you consider the best to discuss class viability? If dungeons and non-Savage is out, WHM is still perfectly viable under the premise that WHM literally had the highest DPS in UwU while it was the relevant content to complete. Everything from 50th percentile and onward had WHM as the highest DPS while still being able to heal the content. In fact, SCH had the lowest DPS of the three. It's not the same now as the only people doing Ultimate are those who have cleared Alphascape already but not Ultima, but WHM superiority in HPS and DPS requirements was there during patch 4.3.

It we are to look at WHM under the microscope of just Alphascape (Savage) only, I feel that's a pretty dim and narrow view of the WHM kit. I'd say looking at WHM's kit in any content that requires 8 players or more is the best range to look at.

WHM needs an identity, and an overhaul to match it, but until the devs give SCH a real weakness and stop making AST a clone with extras (or change up the healing paradigm) I'm not sure WHM will ever see much daylight again.

WHM does have an identity. It's the best triage healer of the three.

...it just a terrible identity given the way the content design for Savage and Ultimate leaves very little to actually triage. You're either flattened or you don't care about the damage. The WHM kit would gain popularity if the content design was different at that tier but I doubt we'll see a deviation. The best thing we can do with WHM is give it more flexibility in other ways that are desirable for the Savage and Ultimate raid scene.

[Risvertasashi]

It's not the same now as the only people doing Ultimate are those who have cleared Alphascape already but not Ultima, but WHM superiority in HPS and DPS requirements was there during patch 4.3.

Prior to 4.3 is prior to healer rebalancing, and not particularly relevant anymore.

It we are to look at WHM under the microscope of just Alphascape (Savage) only, I feel that's a pretty dim and narrow view of the WHM kit.

Yet this is where the meta comes from. This is why we're being asked to switch to/play AST.

Again, if you look only at easy content, no job this expac has needed buffs. DRK, BLM, SAM and so on could have been left exactly as they were.

WHM does have an identity. It's the best triage healer of the three.

No, it's not. I've tried to say this in a few different ways so let me try again...

In the early weeks of progression raiding with low gear levels, AST meets all of the hardest healchecks in the game with the same ease white mage does. While still doing more damage and throwing out raid buffs.

AST isn't struggling with MP, AST isn't struggling to heal prog parties, and so on and so forth. WHM isn't somehow better at healing.

And if you are really struggling, a RDM with MP support probably makes more difference than any particular healer choice. All healers suck when they have to hardcast rez, but all them have some tools to very slightly mitigate how much it sucks. Nothing compares to dualcast, though.

[Ghishlain]

Prior to 4.3 is prior to healer rebalancing, and not particularly relevant anymore.

Ultimate was relevant during 4.3. I'm not sure the relevance of your comment.

Yet this is where the meta comes from. This is why we're being asked to switch to/play AST.

Again, if you look only at easy content, no job this expac has needed buffs. DRK, BLM, SAM and so on could have been left exactly as they were.

I reiterate, WHM had the best DPS out of all three healers in UwU. Where does that put WHM then?

No, it's not. I've tried to say this in a few different ways so let me try again...

In the early weeks of progression raiding with low gear levels, AST meets all of the hardest healchecks in the game with the same ease white mage does. While still doing more damage and throwing out raid buffs.

AST isn't struggling with MP, AST isn't struggling to heal prog parties, and so on and so forth. WHM isn't somehow better at healing.

And if you are really struggling, a RDM with MP support probably makes more difference than any particular healer choice. All healers suck when they have to hardcast rez, but all them have some tools to very slightly mitigate how much it sucks. Nothing compares to dualcast, though.

You're misconstruing my comment.

WHMs kit is still a better triage kit then AST because:
1) More OGCDs to use (Tetra, Bene, Divine Benison, Asylum, Assize, Plenary Indulgence vs Earthly Star, Essential Dignity, Collective Unconsciousness)
2) Better MP kit (Thin Air, Assize vs Lightspeed)
3) GCD heals that augment the WHM oGCD kit

In a vacuum, the WHM kit is better than AST for triage healing.

My comment this entire thread is less about the AST vs WHM dynamic and more about what WHM's role is because that's what the OP asked for. It just happened to flow into that direction due to the replies I was getting.

Just because AST can clear the content at a world first level doesn't change the fact that the WHM kit is still better than AST for triage healing. It speaks more to the volume of the content design and the heal check requirements for the content because WHM can't bring its strengths to the table in any fashion.

WHM needs buffs. I don't disagree with that. But don't attack me and tell me I don't understand the context of your post when you don't understand mine.

[edit] And just for additional clarity. TLDR: The WHM triage kit is better than ASTs - but the AST kit does enough to get through the current raid content thus invalidating WHMs strength in the discussion. That's all.

[Caduagm]

In the early weeks of progression raiding with low gear levels, AST meets all of the hardest healchecks in the game with the same ease white mage does. While still doing more damage and throwing out raid buffs.

You don't have to ridicule someone's post by using big-sized black letters just because you don't have a little potential to argue and ratiocinate about what they're trying to say.
I'm tired, seriously, of your mindless posts, since the beginning of this expansion, about WHM. You don't even have your main bound to your forum's account, because you're afraid about what people will think, since they won't judge about your playstyle while you do it about the others. And whereas your ''best'' argument is: ''It's all about FFlogs''; why are you so afraid to show them, then?


But, anyway. Back to the topic.

In the early weeks of progression raiding with low gear levels, AST meets all of the hardest healchecks in the game with the same ease white mage does.

*Sigh* Another argument without a minimum of searching.

This comes from the AST who is world's second UwU. Contradicting what you were saying above.

with the same ease white mage does.

These are the clears from the past 2 weeks on UCoB (I don't know if you ever really tried it, but, according to your comment, you probably did all of the content progging as AST). Again, even tho AST had significant changes, we can still see how WHM shines, compared to the first, in that fight.

And these are the clears from patch 4.3 (when the AST changes came out) until now.

While still doing more damage and throwing out raid buffs.

Well, the ''throwing out raid buffs'' is one of AST identities. And, yes. We know how ''good'' the Dev. team (we can see with the SMN and PLD's buffs, nerfs, buffs, nerfs While still doing more damage and throwing out raid buffs --- and i'm not even gonna start with SCH/WAR unecessary buffs---) is when we talk about balancing. While they finally made AST fun to play (back on the old dark days when the clipping was ridiculously insane), they made WHM players miserable... I unfortunately can't deny on that.

Now... Dear OP. I never have read that much of meaningless crap in my entire life. And, since I won't waste my precious time, I'd love if you could fix these whenever you can.

AST - Introduced, but was very weak at the start due to improper potencies and MP management issues. Gained gradual buffs, and honestly NEVER got nerfed.

AST had the Balance card nerfed in the beginning of Stormblood (while the change to Spear was to ''compensate'' it, that is still a nerf). Also have had increased MP consumption (due to Aspected Benefic having its MP increased by almost double of the initial value and Luminiferous Aether being a little more powerful than Lucid Dreaming).

Come 3.4 it became stronger than WHM due to how Diurnal Sect gained a +10% Healing buff. It also brought strong utilities in terms of its cards.

The +10% healing buff on Diurnal came, again, with Stormblood. Back on Heavensward it had +5% cast speed.

[Risvertasashi]

-snip-

Why are you bringing up old, ilvl-sync'd content?

I'm talking about alphascape. Where gear ilvls are still low (though we're more than a month in now so yeah that is changing fast). But with AST solo healing ultimate I don't exactly think they're out in the cold on that either.

And whereas your ''best'' argument is: ''It's all about FFlogs''; why are you so afraid to show them, then?

Because people like you would only use it for ad hominem attacks. If you use aggregate statistics to make an argument, you don't need anyone's personal logs.

WHMs kit is still a better triage kit then AST because:
1) More OGCDs to use (Tetra, Bene, Divine Benison, Asylum, Assize, Plenary Indulgence vs Earthly Star, Essential Dignity, Collective Unconsciousness)
2) Better MP kit (Thin Air, Assize vs Lightspeed)
3) GCD heals that augment the WHM oGCD kit

In a vacuum, the WHM kit is better than AST for triage healing.

Still not sure I'd agree. Half those oGCDs you list aren't good for triaging. Bene and Tetra can make good emergency heals, but one is on a very long CD and even the shorter one is still longer than ED. And... lightspeed is really quite good if you need to throw out a lot of spotheals - instant benefic 2s at reduced cost, on the move if need be.

As for MP, no, still disagree. You have to look at the whole picture. But the best evidence is, instead of arguing over specific abilities and MP costs and what not - FF logs.

AST is doing just fine - more than fine really - keeping up very high levels of DPS and keeping everyone healed in the current tier even at low ilvls. This was not true before the AST MP buffs, but it sure is now. (I could also tell you that, running AST, the MP management felt as free as end-of-HW, but I think it's better to look at what hundreds~thousands of players are accomplishing on AST right now than to talk about personal impressions).

And then of course there is SCH. 3 instant oGCD heals every 45s, 6 in 30s if you hit a panic button. Of course SCHs would typically rather use those for other things, but... if you need to triage, they're there. WHM isn't shining here.

--

Ultimately we're circling round, though. The point is still that WHM does not have more healing than other healers. They're all about equal, ultimately, and you can say "But look at this ability and that ability!" yet you have to ignore increasing amounts of performance data to claim otherwise.

And this is a problem when the others bring greater total contributions to the party.

[Ghishlain]

Still not sure I'd agree. Half those oGCDs you list aren't good for triaging. Bene and Tetra can make good emergency heals, but one is on a very long CD and even the shorter one is still longer than ED. And... lightspeed is really quite good if you need to throw out a lot of spotheals - instant benefic 2s at reduced cost, on the move if need be.

As for MP, no, still disagree. You have to look at the whole picture. But the best evidence is, instead of arguing over specific abilities and MP costs and what not - FF logs.

AST is doing just fine - more than fine really - keeping up very high levels of DPS and keeping everyone healed in the current tier even at low ilvls. This was not true before the AST MP buffs, but it sure is now. (I could also tell you that, running AST, the MP management felt as free as end-of-HW, but I think it's better to look at what hundreds~thousands of players are accomplishing on AST right now than to talk about personal impressions).

And then of course there is SCH. 3 instant oGCD heals every 45s, 6 in 30s if you hit a panic button. Of course SCHs would typically rather use those for other things, but... if you need to triage, they're there. WHM isn't shining here.

--

Ultimately we're circling round, though. The point is still that WHM does not have more healing than other healers. They're all about equal, ultimately, and you can say "But look at this ability and that ability!" yet you have to ignore increasing amounts of performance data to claim otherwise.

And this is a problem when the others bring greater total contributions to the party.

I will agree to disagree as well. It's clear that you'll just be focusing on Savage and find any argument outside of that scope irrelevant.

I'm really wondering why plenary indulgence needs a timer on it at all. It should be something you can rely on when you need it. I don't see it being such a broken thing, saving a medica cast or two per fight with Plenary. I actually wouldn't mind the spell if it functioned like this.

I like this idea a lot. Maybe reduce the potency of PI to 100, capping at 300 at three stacks would balance out the permanent stacks.

[Risvertasashi]

I will agree to disagree as well. It's clear that you'll just be focusing on Savage and find any argument outside of that scope irrelevant.

Fair enough, I suppose. No one cares which healer I pick for The Burn.

Re: PI. While it's not the most stellar skill, I don't really want to buffs to healing. The game is already overloaded with powerful heals.