[4.4 Raid Spoilers] Omega's Origin Is Nuts

[Iscah]

That wasn't quite the point I was making. The Astrologin Job treats the "Sun" as being somehow different the the "Stars". And then once Geomancy is introduced, it says that Geomancy draws on the aether of Hydaelyn the plant/star like Astrologins draw on the aether of the "Stars". So Astrologin's "Stars" are like Geomancer's "Planet". Only, Astrologins "Stars" form constellations like Earth's stars do. As in, they have fixed patterns in the Heavens and orbit a Pole Star in those same patterns.

The Dragonstar is talked about by the Ishgardians like it's a normal star (check out some intrinsic variable stars IRL; it sound a lot like one of those), but is talked about by Midgardsormr and Omega like it's a planet. Hydaelyn is referred to as both a planet and a star as well.

In light of that, I have to ask: is Hydaelyn's sun considered a star or not by the Astronomers/Astrologins in-game?

I would assume the sun isn't counted as a star, since it isn't in 'real' Western astrology which they seem to be using as a basis. The sun and moon are grouped with the planets, being moving objects against the 'fixed' stars.



I have to wonder if, while an astrologian's magic skills are real enough, the fortune-telling elements might not be a necessary part of their abilities but just 'tangled up in it', a bit like real-world alchemists developing knowledge of real chemistry while mixing it with a great deal of superstitions and beliefs that don't actually have anything to do with the chemical processes. Or the science of astronomy within astrology itself.

(After all, they're running their calculations to include a moon that is no longer there and actually wasn't a real moon in the first place. Clearly it's not making a lot of difference to the practical outcome of their answers, even if they believe it is.)

It's even possible the 'functional' part of astrologian magic isn't really drawing aether from the stars at all, the caster simply thinks they are, and they're actually drawing ambient aether from the air or something.

Suppose the core working concept of what they do is actually something like arcanistry. The patterned constellations on their star globe - or in the sky itself - might act in the same way as an arcanist's geometric patterns, and their spells cast in the same way. (Both weapons use enchanted ink in their construction, described in the Lv20 alchemist quest as being conductive to aether and "the most important aspect of any grimoire".)


Interestingly, having had that thought, I realised that arcanistry (via scholar) is also a healing discipline with sun and moon elements! But does it all line up?

Eos (sun faerie) has Regen, magic-defence boost and healing boost spells.

Selene (moon faerie) has Silence, Esuna and speed boost spells.

Eos having Regen even lines up with Diurnal Sect's aspected spells, though Selene doesn't match up so well, since it's the scholar themself that uses the shielding spells.

Something to think about...

[Alleo]

Since this topic has all the discussions about stars and their meaning I am going to use it for a question.

I have watched a stream of the Omega story in english (likes to see it in another language) and since I have learned that not everything that is talked in these streams as facts are necessarily true I just want to know the opinion on this forum.

For the whole time I did believe that our world and the universe we are in are just all part of the source. I thought the universe with all its stars and/or planets existed in this before the the split and after the banishment of Zodiark the universe and our world in particular just splitted in 13 shards. So we kinda have 14 universes. That way Omega and Midgardsormr are from the source but far away from Hydaelyn. (Then I read here that maybe only our world has splitted and not the rest)

But the streamer has the view (and kinda declares it as fact too) that the planets that Middy and Omega came from are shards. That the planets/stars that Omega passes are shards that got destroyed.

It just does not make much sense to me. We can clearly see quite a lot of stars in the sky and not only the remaining shards, also if one is technological advanced enough couldnt they then just fly over to the other shards? (Like Middy and Omega did in their view) Also how would Omega be able to travel between the barriers if that kinda needs the mastery of the echo? And since he has no soul how should she do that? Also how would someone wage a war between two shards? Maybe I am the wrong one and missing something but at least this discussion here has kinda pointed in the direction that the view of the streamer might be wrong and I just wanted to get more opinions on this.

[Cilia]

Shards are different dimensions, so any beings coming from there would have to be extradimensional.

Midgardsormr and Omega, on the other hand, are extraterrestrial. They're from other planet(s) - implied to be another solar system, if not further.

[Anonymoose]

But the streamer has the view (and kinda declares it as fact too) that the planets that Middy and Omega came from are shards.

For what it's worth, if this streamer was Ethys, his Discord got into an immediate debate about that claim and he feels that he adequately expressed it as nothing more than his interpretation and his theory.

Ethys09/25/2018
middy said that he came TO the source iirc; "star" is used as a synonym for shard in a few places and generally super vague. I think that the shards exist in distinct physical and noumenal space concurrently, basically

Ethys09/25/2018
it's sound, shards are different worlds and "star" and "shard" are used interchangeable in a bunch of dialogue
you're quite welcome to disagree without being an asshat about it

If it wasn't Ethys, it sure wouldn't be the first time someone took an "I think..." and ran to "educate" others about "the facts," either, lol.

Can I see where some might believe that in a universe where you can go to the "aetherial realm" by digging into the planet that you can get to reflected dimensions (aka shards) through EITHER dimensional barrier crossing OR distance space travel? I suppose. Do I concur with that logic? I don't yet see any compelling evidence for that interpretation.

I believe the overlapping concept of "star" is because it itself is a vague term for celestial bodies in general, and that in a practical sense, "other planets in our dimension" and "our planet in other dimensions" are every bit as much "different planets". I believe the game has represented the other dimensions as occupying different "planar frequencies" of the same physical space, with rigid dimensional "membranes" between one "plane" and another. And I believe the game has represented Midgardsormr and Omega as traveling across interstellar (if not intergalactic) space within the Source dimension. But we'll see!

[Alleo]

Thank you both for the answers.

Good to know that its still up to interpretation and not really a hard fact.

I really wish that streamers would use more phrases that would show that its only their opinion, especially if people question them in stream and they state it again as if its a fact. x)' Gets a bit confusing if you do not know the lore 100% and/or are from a different language. At least that tells me to take some of these things with a grain of salt.

I do agree that the confusion might be because other people would call their own shard a star/planet because they are living on one but that it would not mean that every planet in our universe is a shard. (Which would not make sense because we know that barely any shards are left)

[Vulcwen]

So far, I'm interpreting the word "star" as "world", and therefore can refer to various things that don't necessarily have to be consistent. A shard is a world, a planet is a world, a moon is a world as well, and you can argue even a star in our RL understanding is a world. When someone references a star, we can't really say which kind of world they're referring to, we only know that the world our characters live in is specifically a planet.

We also don't know if the shards are a local phenomenon or something that encompasses the entire universe. If it's just local, moving between shards by space travel could be possible, as then you'd expect the barriers to become thinner the further away you are from the planet.

[Nalien]

I always took the shards to be an entirely local phenomenon, literal reflections of this world at the point of Hydaelyn and Zodiarks little tiff, while the Source is the "true" world that exists in the physical universe, apparently along with the Dragonstar and unknown Omega origin planet. I don't even think they're complete universes, so I wouldn't even strictly call them alternate dimensions, they're more extradimensions tacked onto Hydaelyn. That's just my interpretation of course, but I don't think there are additional versions of Midgardsormr and Omega kicking around in the other shards. The shards are just reflections of Hydaelyn as far as I'm concerned, not the entire universe Hydaelyn exists in. The Void having so many dragons would be a problem for that interpretation, given dragons don't seem native to Hydaelyn, but Xandes war on Meracydia provides a nice explanation for why there are so many dragons associated with the Void; They were effectively imported to that shard during that war, along with various Allagan clones.

I also don't see the creation myth we've been given thus far as anything more than mythology for this specific planet. It's not the Eorzean equivalent of the Big Bang, for example. Planets/Stars are just balls of aether floating around space, and this particular ball just happened to have a Light/Dark schism that created this odd shard phenomena. As such this whole Light vs Darkness plot isn't an end-of-days scenario for anyone capable of space travel, which would explain Midgardsormrs utter lack of interest in our affairs IMO. He is under contract to help of course, but if things go bad? Not really his problem. Space dragon can just move somewhere else again, although based on Omegas observations mid-transit, it's not a very hospitable universe. Still, he does seem very much beyond the whole Hydaelyn vs Zodiark thing, which I don't think would be the case were those two encompassing the entire universes creation. It's all a very local issue as far as I see it.

[Theodric]

I remember speculating that there would be nuances to Omega's motives back when the raid first went live. There was a bit of a kerfuffle in response, though it's good to see that FFXIV continues to provide antagonists with sympathetic elements. Omega's story tied in pretty nicely with some of the themes explored in Nier: Automata. For those not in the know, it's another Square Enix title and I strongly recommend it.

Omega's story in FFXIV ended up being a lot better than I thought it would be. It tied a lot of things together rather nicely, as well as providing quite a bit of much needed character development for Cid and Nero whilst also providing further details on the mystery that was Midgardsormr. Had Omega not forced Midgardsormr to head to Hydaelyn, then by consequence Ishgard's story would have never played out in the way that it did. It's pretty fascinating just how many things Omega's actions set in motion.

[Davy_M_Jones]

I hadn't initially drawn connections in theme between Nier and Omega. As if it wasn't tearful enough...

[Valenth]

Thank you both for the answers.

Good to know that its still up to interpretation and not really a hard fact.

I really wish that streamers would use more phrases that would show that its only their opinion, especially if people question them in stream and they state it again as if its a fact. x)' Gets a bit confusing if you do not know the lore 100% and/or are from a different language. At least that tells me to take some of these things with a grain of salt.

I think it's mostly a difference in PoV between say Ethys and Anonymoose (whom I believe like to nerd out together on XIV lore on- and off-screen otherwise). Ethys likes to stick to the material provided in-game to the letter while Anonymoose is, if I remember correctly, more a believer of 'the in-game authors could lie/embellish to us or make 'mistakes'' which of course could be a calculated tool for providing a story narrative by the authors of the in-game authors (inception much?).

Both have their merits I suppose. As to why streamers don't always make it clear it's their opinion, remember they're human in the end as well. What I mean to say is that I can certainly understand it to be cumbersome if streamers have to constantly say in their streams something is their opinion, especially if they've been going on with what they do for so long. Doesn't negate the fact it would be handy if they did, but there you have it. It never hurts to always ask yourself "but what if..." when dealing with these things in the end and decide for yourself if the information provided works for you. ^^