Eureka is still ruined because of Pagos

[Reynhart]

source?, because i don't remember he saying that

With pleasure :
https://gamerescape.com/2016/11/15/f...-fan-festival/

Y: I usually compare FFXIV with a theme park, but the Forbidden Land of Eureka won’t be a place where everyone would want to go. For example, there are people who don’t want to go to horror houses because they don’t see the point in getting scared on purpose. For example, on a date, the boyfriend might want to invite the girlfriend to go the horror house, but the girlfriend just doesn’t seem to find it fun. In other words, it’s not like everyone wants to go to the horror house, but there are people who just love the adrenalin rush they get from it. Think of Eureka as something like that.

Two years ago, so, basically, the very first bit of information he gave on Eureka is "It's not for everyone".

[Vahlnir]

With pleasure :
https://gamerescape.com/2016/11/15/f...-fan-festival/

Two years ago, so, basically, the very first bit of information he gave on Eureka is "It's not for everyone".

The same could be said for any piece of content. But seeing as Eureka was one of the main pieces of content in Stormblood (with a relic grind no less)...it should appeal to as many people as possible. And it doesn't. It's a design flaw, as well as a flawed mentality to have. It shouldn't be defended imo. It's really a symptom of a much larger problem.

[Reynhart]

The same could be said for any piece of content. But seeing as Eureka was one of the main pieces of content in Stormblood (with a relic grind no less)...it should appeal to as many people as possible.

The other content that is notoriously famous for "not being for everyone" is Savage. You never hear this for dungeons, trials, etc...
And the relic is irrelevant. It's not a competitive weapon for progression since Heavensward, so it's nothing but a personal challenge. So, like I always say, if you don't like Eureka, just don't do it. And yeah, some of us

just love the adrenalin rush [we] get from it

like fearing death and having to sneak our way around mobs.

Niether was Ultimate yet look at the reception that piece of content got from the community overall. Even those who didn't run it noted how well made it was especially considering it was just re-using past pieces of content.

Yeah, because they acknowledged that it was not for them and they moved on...same for PvP...or Deep Dungeon...
You don't see people complaining that Savage is the only way to get Savage gear, Deep Dungeon the only to get Deep Dungeon weapon, etc...Yet they can't accept that Eureka is the only way to get Eureka weapons...

Oh, and I'm pretty sure more people run Eureka that Ultimate...In fact, I'm pretty sure more people like Eureka than run Ultimate.

The only difference between Eureka and the Overworld at this point are the generic mobs being HP sponges and having harder autoattacks. Were this style of content really desired and had a following in the playerbase Yoshida could have easily just buffed overworld mobs and put the basic chaining mechanic into it so you can level off it because at the end of the day thats all the Elemental Level is.

No because it would have forced a challenging overworld for everyone, and some people don't like it. So he made one where you'd have to chose to go.

That's really what I don't understand. This game contains 90% of content that follow the same trend. Some of us like Eureka because it's the one content that doesn't and you try to change it to become just another FFXIV usual hand-holding activity. You have the whole game to fit your view, do you have to be greedy to also have the last 10% ? You never see a pro-Eureka asking for the whole game to become like that...

This is a grind for the sake of a grind and has essentially killed of all non-Eureka content faster than ever since the Relic is no longer sustaining past pieces of content for progression.

Roulettes and wondrous tails are more than enough to keep every past trial and dungeon alive, and now, even raids are sustained by their own roulettes. So no, Eureka killed nothing. Jump potions, on the other hand...

[Noodle_Trinidad]

Yeah, because they acknowledged that it was not for them and they moved on...same for PvP...or Deep Dungeon...
You don't see people complaining that Savage is the only way to get Savage gear, Deep Dungeon the only to get Deep Dungeon weapon, etc...Yet they can't accept that Eureka is the only way to get Eureka weapons...
Oh, and I'm pretty sure more people run Eureka that Ultimate...In fact, I'm pretty sure more people like Eureka than people run Ultimate.

You rarely hear complaints due to the fact that while the gear is desirable not only does it offer some incentive to actually do proper content the content itself is generally well received by the community to the point where most people want to at least give it the good old college try rather than complain they can't get it. Not to mention the fact that Savage is a result from people wanting to experience the Story after Coils only had one set of difficulty meaning only the Hardcore raiders got to originally see "The Flames of Truth" and Allagan Gear. So we already in a way got a way of obtaining the gear that Savage would give in a lesser form (ie Undyable) so it appeased a good chunk of people as well.

Do you not understand why Eureka is lambasted time and time again? It's not because the content isn't for them but because its content that is locking away what used to be a piece of gear that helped keep other content alive, that allowed people to play the way they wanted while feeling some kind of progression towards their weapon but Eureka has taken all that away and isolated the system into itself. So not only are you forced to get this coveted weapon, which is a glorified glamstick at this point given how Anemos was already obsolete upon release and Pagos came out a few weeks before the new iLvl, in this piece of content but the content is akin to smacking a Overworld mob 100 times to fight what is essentially a Boss Fate.

They have taken Dinosaur Island from Diadem and made it the whole map, they removed the DoH/L pull and gave it a system that guarantees its death after the expansion. The grind no longer offers a reward that can be justified nor is the grind fun or compatible with the XIV combat system, its content made for the sake of eating up your time with nothing to offer and thats what has people hating it. The reason Anemos did so well with the lack of Level Sync was because the NM Train at the very least made the grind bearable and gave people some hope that Yoshi-P would learn from it in Pagos but lo and behold it somehow offers less than Anemos and requires a bigger grind. Correct me if I'm wrong but was it not said by Yoshida during a live letter that Pagos was going to be capped at 30? If thats the case then the mere fact that its 35 now definitely shows they don't think Pagos has enough to hold people off other than to extend the grind.

And let's not forget that the 4th iteration of Eureka (Be it Gaia or Petras or w/e stone name) has already been confirmed to use the final stages of Logos for a Public Raid. Sounds like they're gonna once again pull the Diadem Emergency Mission and complete the cycle of Diadem only worse this time around.

[Reynhart]

So we already in a way got a way of obtaining the gear that Savage would give in a lesser form (ie Undyable) so it appeased a good chunk of people as well.

You mean like the Anemos gear is exactly the job specific gear, but dyable ?

what used to be a piece of gear that helped keep other content alive

Again, old content is far from dead.

So not only are you forced to get this coveted weapon, which is a glorified glamstick at this point

That's the thing, you're not forced to, especially since it's just a glorified glamstick. The Eureka weapon is not a competitive weapon.

Correct me if I'm wrong but was it not said by Yoshida during a live letter that Pagos was going to be capped at 30?

Doesn't ring a bell.

The reason Anemos did so well with the lack of Level Sync was because the NM Train

Anemos being synced at elvl 20 and giving increased Xp means that you can lesurely gain levels by simply doing the challenge log and the Anemos without even entering Pagos. You could easily have a head start to unlock at least two aetherytes and joining the Pagos train which has been promplty revived.

Sounds like they're gonna once again pull the Diadem Emergency Mission and complete the cycle of Diadem only worse this time around.

The problem with Emergency mission was not the concept itself, but the layers and layers of randomness, ending in some people setting foot time and time again in Diadem without even seeing an Emergency mission, yet alone gaining anything from it.

You seem to be under the impression that Eureka is truly a challenge. The difficulty is an illusion, if not artificial. The only "adrenaline rush" to be had is making it to an NM on time.

No, it's not. Roaming around monsters to reach a specific part of the map is more interesting for me than doing the same boss with scripted mechanics over and over. In fact, I just did the lvl 35 quest and it was fun being with two other people keeping our back while Solid Snaking our way around griffins and malboroes.

The relic has ALWAYS been (up until Stormblood at least) competitive to some degree. It just had a slower start in HW, but it caught up rather nicely. I'd like to have a reasonable debate with you, but you seem to be ignoring what's right in front of you.

Yeah, right...
Anima was introduced during 3.15 with an ilvl of 200. At that time, you could buy a tome weapon for the same ilvl, do Thordan EX for a better weapon, and upgrade your tome weapon to 210 with Void Ark.
3.25 was the second step, for an ilvl of 230. Again, you could buy a tome weapon for the same ilvl.
Next step, 3.3, ilvl 240. Mhach could upgrade a tome weapon to that level.
Next step, 3.45, ilvl 260. You could buy tome weapon for that ilvl.
Newt step 3.55, ilvl 275. At last, the Anima weapon was better that what you could buy with tomestones. Only once did you even need a 24-man raid token to reach the same ilvl.

[Noodle_Trinidad]

You mean like the Anemos gear is exactly the job specific gear, but dyable ?

Are you deliberately ignoring the context of that quote? You're the one who said that people don't complain about Savage gear only being obtainable in Savage. Like I mentioned in that post, Savage is a result from people wanting to experience the story and the raid overall, this included a lesser form of the gear which remedies that.

Again, old content is far from dead.

Except it has died faster than the past expansion and reboot. Are you going to keep ignoring the fact that the Zodiac and the Anima progression did have mandatory duties that consisted of past pieces of content? Or the fact that Anima itself managed to keep ARF and A1S utterly relevant patches after their introduction?

That's the thing, you're not forced to, especially since it's just a glorified glamstick. The Eureka weapon is not a competitive weapon.

So what incentive is there to do this content? How are you going to justify the grind and dedication of resources with this argument considering past iterations of the Relic were grindy yet pretty viable choices if not BiS at times for almost each of their steps? Hell even if HoH and PoTD offer glamours you know what else they offered? A leveling alternative, even PvP has been updated to give exp to gather more people on top of making all future PvP gear cosmetic only. Cosmetic only reward with a horrible showcasing of the Battle System is no incentive at all.

Anemos being synced at elvl 20 and giving increased Xp means that you can lesurely gain levels by simply doing the challenge log and the Anemos without even entering Pagos. You could easily have a head start to unlock at least two aetherytes and joining the Pagos train which has been promplty revived.

The problem with Emergency mission was not the concept itself, but the layers and layers of randomness, ending in some people setting foot time and time again in Diadem without even seeing an Emergency mission, yet alone gaining anything from it.

No, it's not. Roaming around monsters to reach a specific part of the map is more interesting for me than doing the same boss with scripted mechanics over and over. In fact, I just did the lvl 35 quest and it was fun being with two other people keeping our back while Solid Snaking our way around griffins and malboroes.

Yeah that's great I can level without touching what should have been the next milestone of this piece of content. Think about that for a second, the scaling and gutting of community workarounds has essentially made Pagos untouchable until you reach an arbitrary number because they didn't think ahead about how fun it is and how heavily focused it is party wise and punishing for 1-2 level discrepancies. Bravo SE Bravo. There is no defending the fact that they somehow made their content a pain to do if you don't do more of the old iteration first because the Devs couldn't iterate correctly. And funny when you say the Emergency Mission sucked cause of the levels of RNG it had, which was one of the biggest reasons why it did indeed suck, yet they're once again considering adding more RNG on top of the RNG filled drops onto stats: http://blog.livedoor.jp/umadori0726/.../54082730.html

Like I said the Roaming bits are only challenging cause of the stats being pumped up on mobs, theyre all generally generic trash mobs that just happen to hit hard and tank a lot of damage. There is nothing interesting because they couldn't be bothered to give them interesting movesets or interesting parameters. I mean the sleeping dragons themselves are a leftover trait from 1.0 from Treants that used to one shot you on your way to Moggle Mog. This content would have died were it not for the relic and Pagos has shown that not even that is proving enough to keep people in it, plain and simple Eureka is an utter failure of an idea the Devs cant seem to iterate on but can't seem to abandon. I'm all for letting them experiment if they actually did Experiment with it.

[Reynhart]

Are you going to keep ignoring the fact that the Zodiac and the Anima progression did have mandatory duties that consisted of past pieces of content? Or the fact that Anima itself managed to keep ARF and A1S utterly relevant patches after their introduction?

These duties were not mandatory for Anima, so it kept those alive alongside other content. And still, this content is not dead as long as you have the roulette. Ok, O1S is probably dead, but since you don't need it for the story and the rewards are useless, it's not really a problem.

So what incentive is there to do this content? How are you going to justify the grind and dedication of resources with this argument considering past iterations of the Relic were grindy yet pretty viable choices if not BiS at times for almost each of their steps?

Can't speak for everyone. Me, I like the personal challenge of upgrading my relic (It's basically the only thing that keeps me paying my sub), and I like how Eureka is different from everything else in the game, since I'm utterly bored of Tome farming. So, basically, I don't have to do it because it's a competitive advantage, I like doing it.

Hell even if HoH and PoTD offer glamours you know what else they offered? A leveling alternative, even PvP has been updated to give exp to gather more people on top of making all future PvP gear cosmetic only.

Yeah, so ? Do we really need another content for leveling purpose where you'd lose all of your skills once again ?

Think about that for a second, the scaling and gutting of community workarounds has essentially made Pagos untouchable until you reach an arbitrary number because they didn't think ahead about how fun it is and how heavily focused it is party wise and punishing for 1-2 level discrepancies.

Maybe, just maybe if people actually think on how to progress in Eureka instead of following like sheep, maybe it could have been bearable for more people. To this day, you frequently see in Pagos enough low levels to create a full chain Xp party, but instead of that, they just struggle to follow a train that gives barely nothing to them, still convinced that it's the most efficient way to level. Seriously, I joined Pagos very late and it took me one week to go from 24 to 32 by doing proper FATES, challenge and Xp chain.

And funny when you say the Emergency Mission sucked cause of the levels of RNG it had, which was one of the biggest reasons why it did indeed suck, yet they're once again considering adding more RNG on top of the RNG filled drops onto stats: http://blog.livedoor.jp/umadori0726/.../54082730.html

Yeah sure...In Pyros, the value of the stats you chose are randomized. It's totally the same as doing a random mission that randomly drops a weapon for a random job to a random player with random stats with random values. Yep, totally the same thing.

This content would have died were it not for the relic and Pagos has shown that not even that is proving enough to keep people in it, plain and simple Eureka is an utter failure of an idea the Devs cant seem to iterate on but can't seem to abandon. I'm all for letting them experiment if they actually did Experiment with it.

Again, people like you keep saying that Pagos is dead, when it's far from the truth. Every night I log on (When Chaos actually work) I have no issue joining an almost full instance with a perfectly working train, with people even willing to help "walkers". The people that left are just those who can't force themselves to do a content they don't like anymore. Good for them to do something else that's more fun, and good for us to be between people who actually enjoy Eureka.

[Vahlnir]

-snip-

You seem to be under the impression that Eureka is truly a challenge. The difficulty is an illusion, if not artificial. The only "adrenaline rush" to be had is making it to an NM on time. Everything else is just trying to slow people down, not make them feel engaged. The relic has ALWAYS been (up until Stormblood at least) competitive to some degree. It just had a slower start in HW, but it caught up rather nicely. I'd like to have a reasonable debate with you, but you seem to be ignoring what's right in front of you.

[Bright-Flower]

You seem to be under the impression that Eureka is truly a challenge. The difficulty is an illusion, if not artificial. The only "adrenaline rush" to be had is making it to an NM on time. Everything else is just trying to slow people down, not make them feel engaged. The relic has ALWAYS been (up until Stormblood at least) competitive to some degree. It just had a slower start in HW, but it caught up rather nicely. I'd like to have a reasonable debate with you, but you seem to be ignoring what's right in front of you.

Yeah. Eureka is a long grind, but not difficult. Even losing exp to dying is pretty negligable. I have only twice ever actually not gotten a res, even when out exploring or trying to do quests surrounded by high level mobs. One was because I was in a bad mood and said '**** it' and just logged out after dying. The second was me having a brainfart moment, thinking I'd gotten a res at a NM fight and releasing back to camp by mistake. There's always someone nearby or willing to go out of their way to give you a res in Eureka so as long as your'e patient it's rare to actually lose exp.

[Berteaux_Braumegain]

And yeah, some of us like fearing death and having to sneak our way around mobs.

You're allowed to like Eureka and by no means am I trying to suggest you're wrong for doing so. That said, I cannot understand this sentiment at all because death has only two outcomes in Eureka:

- You are KO'd. You ask someone in party/shout to come and Raise you. They do. The only consequence of this is getting Weakness/Near Death status.

- You are KO'd. You ask someone in party/shout to come and Raise you. They don't. You lose hundreds of thousands of EXP and go down a level.

The latter has, thus far, never happened to me no matter what area it is because people spend a good deal of time in Eureka rezbotting. At worst, you'll miss a NM.

But what you're suggesting seems to be that Eureka is fun because of the risk, which is either non-existent or extremely punishing to the point of undoing hours of grinding. It's a pointless punishment at best and actively detrimental at worst.

I don't really understand how that adds to the fun factor. I look at it as comparable to "Wouldn't it be fun if whenever you wiped in a Trial, you lost a quarter of your total gil?"