Job/Role daydreaming

[kikix12]

But, that's stupid. You want every healer to have Swiftcast ? Make switcast a native skill for all of them.

Yes, exactly. That's my point. This simple fact is why I do not trust the developers with a more complicated form of talent trees or sub-jobs, ones that would bleed into different trinity role.

[Reynhart]

A spear tank would mostly be spear&shield and can't reuse the animations and weapons from LNC, so it would take more work.

Based on what ? The tank that's Axe & Shield ? Or Longsword and Shield ?

I know low levels get easily ignored, but GLA still needs to function at below level 30, so you can't just lump every tanking related skill onto PLD.

Basically, my suggestion simply swaps Flash for Total Eclipse, and give Shield "Stance" much sooner than now, boosting enmity of every action and offering higher mitigation. This would easily compensate for losing the only tanking skills GLA natively has below lvl 30, which is Flash and the enmity boost on Savage and RoH (Especially since you'd only have RoH for Haukke Manor before being PLD and having the enmity bonus again).

And even then, bringing up the gear issues again, they wouldn't use GLA/PLD armor, they wouldn't use the same weapons and shields as GLA/PLD, so why base it off of GLA/PLD?

They would still use sword and shield, so you wouldn't even have to create new types of weapon, simply flagging them off GLA/PLD. After all, you already have shields and swords that GLA can't equip (Even PLD for some shields), it's not really a problem.
And for armor, you just add this new DPS to DRG gear, just a flag again. And you'd still use the same basic rotation, meaning you wouldn't start this new job completely blind.

Yes, exactly. That's my point.

That's technically also my point. Putting them on a separate set instead of simply giving them to all classes would be a great way to offer more job opportunities.

[Legion88]

Based on what ? The tank that's Axe & Shield ? Or Longsword and Shield ?

Neither nor.
Roman Legions

[Muchmidget]

Just to throw my 2 cents back in after reading where discussion has gone:
I wasn't thinking of separate jobs off of the base class - everything about the Job's core kit would remain the same. You wouldn't even use different gear (they'd probably have to scale PLD/WAR/DRK gear down defense-wise to balance it out while going as dps). You would simply have a different set of actions/traits from the Role Actions to allow you to do that different role. (Also, keep in mind that some jobs would not make sense to have another role, such as Ninja as I've seen discussed above)
...of course now I'm thinking of the old joke of Dragoons tanking the floor....
...and possibly tanking a lower floor after accidentally using Evasive Jump and going over the edge...

[Legion88]

Just to throw my 2 cents back in after reading where discussion has gone:
I wasn't thinking of separate jobs off of the base class - everything about the Job's core kit would remain the same. You wouldn't even use different gear (they'd probably have to scale PLD/WAR/DRK gear down defense-wise to balance it out while going as dps). You would simply have a different set of actions/traits from the Role Actions to allow you to do that different role. (Also, keep in mind that some jobs would not make sense to have another role, such as Ninja as I've seen discussed above)
...of course now I'm thinking of the old joke of Dragoons tanking the floor....
...and possibly tanking a lower floor after accidentally using Evasive Jump and going over the edge...

The gear wouldn't be the problem, because the DPS job from GLA, wouldn't be able to wear fending/tank gear it would have to wear maiming or striking gear, depending of the style of the job.
Also Reynhart showed how to rework GLA to make a DPS offspring possible, even if i think that a basic tank stance for the classes should be available via the role skills.

[Bright-Flower]

The gear wouldn't be the problem, because the DPS job from GLA, wouldn't be able to wear fending/tank gear it would have to wear maiming or striking gear, depending of the style of the job.
Also Reynhart showed how to rework GLA to make a DPS offspring possible, even if i think that a basic tank stance for the classes should be available via the role skills.

Yeah, just as scholar and smn don't use the same gear, a dps splitting off of gladiator wouldn't wear tank gear.

Though I don't see this happening I'm pretty sure all new jobs added will be new jobs from the ground up. As much as I would like a job that used a longsword as dps. (I don't like katanas as much, and drk swords are too crazy oversized generally for me to be into them.)

Part of that is more my dislike of job specific weapons. Sure it leads to some cool stuff like how red mage rapeirs and focuses work, but generally I'd prefer my paladin to be able to use a one handed sword, mace or axe etc. But I guess this is kind of a FF staple.

[Reynhart]

Neither nor. Roman Legions

Roman legions didn't have tanks, healers and DPS

even if i think that a basic tank stance for the classes should be available via the role skills.

The issue with this is that all tank stances would be exactly the same, which would only make them bland. My personal gripe against Dark Knight is that Grit is just another name for Shield Oath.

[Legion88]

Roman legions didn't have tanks, healers and DPS

The same could be sayed for every source of inspiration in the real world and even for most fantasy worlds
I have to correct myself, but i will do this in another post.

The issue with this is that all tank stances would be exactly the same, which would only make them bland. My personal gripe against Dark Knight is that Grit is just another name for Shield Oath.

But this would only be for the classes, jobs could get their own unique tank stances, maybe even a more powerfull variant.
Edit:
Also it is more important how the stance works with the tool kit and PLD and DRK have their stances like independent skills with no real interaction with the toll kit.
The stances on every tank can all be the same as long as the interaction with the tool kit sets them appart from each other.

[Gemina]

That's not the proper use of "antiquated". Entertainment does not ever get "out of fashion" and for something to be outdated there needs to be a modern version that is superior.

In other words, for the sub-job system you speak of to be viably considered antiquated, there needs to be a different kind of sub-job system that is more user-friendly/enjoyable. You cannot say that the sub-job mechanic itself is antiquated, ever, without being plain wrong.

When a superior system replaces an older one of the same type, the older becomes 'obsolete'. That is the word I would have used if there was a current subjob system in FFXIV that is replacing an inferior version. You need to understand that I never stated that the subjob system is a flawed design. It did work well in FFXI and other games for all intents and purposes. I just personally didn't like it. That bias has no bearing on why I used antiquated, because this system IS old, outdated, behind the times; and hell, I'll use obsolete too. When it was a system of FFXI, whose release date is now well over a decade ago and is not a system of FFXIV; is it indeed all of the afore mentioned.

I on the other hand like this system and it irked me that the "necessity" in FFXIV was so low when I begun playing. I always wanted the multiple classes to be more tied together, not less. And they completely removed it...I say, what's the point of making a Final Fantasy game and then remove the very thing that makes Final Fantasy series games different from rank and file RPG's?! This is not Final Fantasy game in anything but name. It's a good RPG with good story, but it have nothing that makes Final Fantasy what it is beyond that and some aesthetics. Not even skill effects are anywhere near other Final Fantasy titles.

Fair enough, but you know why they removed it, right? If you understand why, then you should understand why the subjob system just won't work. I mean, they can put it in and do the best to keep things balanced and playable, fun and all that jazz, but at the end of the day the meta is going to throw out any customization you find the most "fun" if it isn't the most optimal.

No, it's not nostalgia. It's entertainment. If I'd say that I cannot understand how anyone can still want RPG's in this day and age when all the rage is Battle Royale, Idle games, mobile strategy games and MOBA games, I'd be rightfully laughed at. You are doing the exact same here, completely dismissing a core concept that simply cannot become outdated.

But before that, you said this...

It's a good RPG with good story, but it have nothing that makes Final Fantasy what it is beyond that and some aesthetics.

That IS the core concept of Final Fantasy. A good RPG. A good Story. FFXIV has amazing visuals, effects, and aesthetics. Beautifully drawn characters and landscapes. Great music that captures the moment. The ability to take your character and immerse him or her into this fantasy and grow strong and powerful over time. If you think this game misses the core concept of FF, I am more inclined to say that it is actually you. Especially if you are pushing for a subjob system as if this FEATURE in a FF title serves as its foundation. I could say the same about the job system, but not every FF game has had this system. And if my memory serves me correctly, the FF titles that had a true job system were always far less customizable than the games without it.

the rest...

Ok, for the remainder of your post, I am not even quite sure what you're on about. I know it's a daydreaming thread so pretty much anything goes. To close, I will say that there are things about FFXIV that I am not a big fan of, and I have my own ideas I would love implemented into the game. I am but one voice in the community, but the dev team has their own visions and the means to bring them to fruition. All I can do is hope the make the right decisions to keep the game as enjoyable as possible for everyone who subs.

[Legion88]

Roman legions didn't have tanks, healers and DPS

They have.
The tanks are the legionaires, shield and spear, they bind enemy advances and try to position them for their own advantage.
DPS are essentially all supporting battle units like archers, chariots, cavallery and war engines like ballistas and catapults.
Healers are the support lines to reinforce the man power and bring in rations and materials.

The same can be said for modern military.
Tanks and infantery are in the tank role. Advancing, binding, enemy positioning.
DPS are all others in form of artillery, bomber, helicoters and special forces.
And the healer role is in the support lines, hospitals, workshops etc.

So the trinity system can be applied on military forces just not on a scale like in an trinity based MMO.

Tanks: high endurance and self sustain, binding enemies and position them.
DPS: high destructive output, highly vulnearable
Healer: recovery and support