Job/Role daydreaming

[kikix12]

It's an antiquated system that makes everything more tedious than it has to be already.

That's not the proper use of "antiquated". Entertainment does not ever get "out of fashion" and for something to be outdated there needs to be a modern version that is superior.

In other words, for the sub-job system you speak of to be viably considered antiquated, there needs to be a different kind of sub-job system that is more user-friendly/enjoyable. You cannot say that the sub-job mechanic itself is antiquated, ever, without being plain wrong.

Even back in FFXI, I remember thinking how much I hated the subjob system because even for casual content, I was forced to level jobs I had absolutely zero interest in if I wanted to participate in group play.

You're free to hate this system, it's your opinion and your enjoyment. I on the other hand like this system and it irked me that the "necessity" in FFXIV was so low when I begun playing. I always wanted the multiple classes to be more tied together, not less. And they completely removed it...I say, what's the point of making a Final Fantasy game and then remove the very thing that makes Final Fantasy series games different from rank and file RPG's?! This is not Final Fantasy game in anything but name. It's a good RPG with good story, but it have nothing that makes Final Fantasy what it is beyond that and some aesthetics. Not even skill effects are anywhere near other Final Fantasy titles.

I just can't fathom why anyone wants this system in 2018. Is it nostalgia?

No, it's not nostalgia. It's entertainment. If I'd say that I cannot understand how anyone can still want RPG's in this day and age when all the rage is Battle Royale, Idle games, mobile strategy games and MOBA games, I'd be rightfully laughed at. You are doing the exact same here, completely dismissing a core concept that simply cannot become outdated.

This can be done well and it can be done poorly. But the idea behind it is at the same level as tactical strategy games, turn-based strategy games, real-time strategy games, arcade races or simulation races, isometric RPG's, third person perspective RPG's or first person perspective RPG's etc. It's a design type within the general genre of RPG.

And I like it now for the same reasons I liked it five, ten, fifteen years ago. Because it's fun. Because I like mix and matching stuff. Final Fantasy Tactics series are still one of my favorite games ever, not for the stories which weren't all that fun in comparison to some other games, but for the mechanics that these three games offered. I liked trying to figure out how to get an overpowered Calculator in the PS original, without putting myself in a bind (random encounters were based on the highest/average level among your party, so you could power-level a single character in a single fight to high heaven, but as a result you would be absolutely obliterated in the first random encounter). I liked making powerhouses that could deal with individuals or groups at any range in Tactics Advance. The final game in the series actually took some of that freedom away with its changes to mana system (start at zero, rather than start from full) and all-around "balancing", but it still offered customization that allowed me to make a party however I wanted.


Also, there is no such thing as "unique but balanced". It's either unique OR balanced. There are only so many factors that can be modified, even less of them are left.

Range (close, mid or long).
Which of the trinity.
Damage in burst, or in constant.
AoE heavy or single-target heavy.
Magical or physical.
Support heavy or raw damage.
Heavy heal or heal and shield or heal over time.
High HP or high damage reduction.

And...that's really all. The last two don't even apply to DPS, each applies to only one role. So that's six factors for DPS, seven factors for tanks and healers. You simply will not be able to maintain balance with variety. There's only so many ways to make damage dealing skills when there is no difference between the damage types anyway. They removed elemental effects so all the skills are one and the same, with different potency. There is still a difference between magical and physical to account for magic classes lack of auto-attack, giving them more bang for the buck on skills, but that's about all.

They should go the other way around, actually. Embrace the fact that classes can be changed freely and make classes that are simply fun even if they lag behind on power. In lower content they can be enjoyed as is, in higher content the players can just switch. But of course...they won't. Cause they listen to the "I don't care about multi-class system, I want my class to be at the top in all content, period, cause I like it the most" instead.

[Gemina]

That's not the proper use of "antiquated". Entertainment does not ever get "out of fashion" and for something to be outdated there needs to be a modern version that is superior.

In other words, for the sub-job system you speak of to be viably considered antiquated, there needs to be a different kind of sub-job system that is more user-friendly/enjoyable. You cannot say that the sub-job mechanic itself is antiquated, ever, without being plain wrong.

When a superior system replaces an older one of the same type, the older becomes 'obsolete'. That is the word I would have used if there was a current subjob system in FFXIV that is replacing an inferior version. You need to understand that I never stated that the subjob system is a flawed design. It did work well in FFXI and other games for all intents and purposes. I just personally didn't like it. That bias has no bearing on why I used antiquated, because this system IS old, outdated, behind the times; and hell, I'll use obsolete too. When it was a system of FFXI, whose release date is now well over a decade ago and is not a system of FFXIV; is it indeed all of the afore mentioned.

I on the other hand like this system and it irked me that the "necessity" in FFXIV was so low when I begun playing. I always wanted the multiple classes to be more tied together, not less. And they completely removed it...I say, what's the point of making a Final Fantasy game and then remove the very thing that makes Final Fantasy series games different from rank and file RPG's?! This is not Final Fantasy game in anything but name. It's a good RPG with good story, but it have nothing that makes Final Fantasy what it is beyond that and some aesthetics. Not even skill effects are anywhere near other Final Fantasy titles.

Fair enough, but you know why they removed it, right? If you understand why, then you should understand why the subjob system just won't work. I mean, they can put it in and do the best to keep things balanced and playable, fun and all that jazz, but at the end of the day the meta is going to throw out any customization you find the most "fun" if it isn't the most optimal.

No, it's not nostalgia. It's entertainment. If I'd say that I cannot understand how anyone can still want RPG's in this day and age when all the rage is Battle Royale, Idle games, mobile strategy games and MOBA games, I'd be rightfully laughed at. You are doing the exact same here, completely dismissing a core concept that simply cannot become outdated.

But before that, you said this...

It's a good RPG with good story, but it have nothing that makes Final Fantasy what it is beyond that and some aesthetics.

That IS the core concept of Final Fantasy. A good RPG. A good Story. FFXIV has amazing visuals, effects, and aesthetics. Beautifully drawn characters and landscapes. Great music that captures the moment. The ability to take your character and immerse him or her into this fantasy and grow strong and powerful over time. If you think this game misses the core concept of FF, I am more inclined to say that it is actually you. Especially if you are pushing for a subjob system as if this FEATURE in a FF title serves as its foundation. I could say the same about the job system, but not every FF game has had this system. And if my memory serves me correctly, the FF titles that had a true job system were always far less customizable than the games without it.

the rest...

Ok, for the remainder of your post, I am not even quite sure what you're on about. I know it's a daydreaming thread so pretty much anything goes. To close, I will say that there are things about FFXIV that I am not a big fan of, and I have my own ideas I would love implemented into the game. I am but one voice in the community, but the dev team has their own visions and the means to bring them to fruition. All I can do is hope the make the right decisions to keep the game as enjoyable as possible for everyone who subs.

[BubblyBoar]

The problem with this request is ALWAYS the same. Why do specs or talent trees when you could just make a new job? That's the dev teams thought process and I agree with it. Why make a NIN with tanking skills tacted on? You can just make an eastern themed tank instead. Why have a WHM that is DPS focused when you could just make a job out of it instead?


The only answer people have come up with is basically "I don't want to level another job." That's just lazy.

[Reynhart]

Why do specs or talent trees when you could just make a new job?

It cost less to tweak a class skills so that they fit two roles and use role actions to cover the core aspect of each archetype than creating a new job from scratch. And it pleases the fetishists of a certain type of weapon. And, again, it could make player feel more comfortable to switch role if they're already familiar with the flavor of the class.

[kikix12]

The only answer people have come up with is basically "I don't want to level another job." That's just lazy.

The answer to that is actually much simpler than that. If the talent tree is a supplement, then there is the core there. The class in itself would be largely in the skills that are set in stone.

Think about Scholar and Summoner for a moment. Both of them have the same basic toolkit. Let's ignore the major mistake a DPS class being the core for a healer. But that's the core in the form of Arcanist.

Since that core is there, there is no need to duplicate it. Making a new class entirely you will need to make that "core" again. And either you copy it from the original class (if Scholar was an upgrade of, lets say, Savant, then that Savant would copy the skills of an arcanist) which either makes the two classes so similar they could be one and the same to begin with (duh), or you have to change the aesthetics at least which would result in copying the skill effects, but would name them differently reducing the pool of names for actual new skills in the future. Alternatively those core skills could be made completely different (like, if this Savant would have an entirely different toolkit from Arcanist), making it bona-fide new class...but then you have to do TWICE as many skills in design. And the core skills usually are the simple things that are mostly copy-pasted with potencies switched around, so they are rather...unexciting. In both design and practice. So twice the design work for barely anything more.

These "talent trees" could even be leveled separately, so the "lazy" excuse is not even valid.

Now, what is a bad idea is to bleed into different roles, unless the core would really be basic. That's what they did with Arcanist and Scholar and that absolutely did not work. Frankly, the team behind FFXIV is absolutely not able to properly balance the core between two different parts of the trinity. It's just not something they are skilled in, and it is not easy either. You can see that the game is simplified because they simply cannot cope up with balancing more complicated mechanics (they and some of the playerbase both). So I'm afraid that if such a thing would happen, it either would be ill-suited to a trinity system made by this team, or it would need to be mostly lesser in effect or entirely about play-style rather than role. As in, a paladin could get a bit more healing, but could not be a healer (changing survivability from brute-forcing into healing himself up, for example, paying for the ability to help the healers for non-tanks with having a harder time to deal with tankbusters himself). Red mage is a good example. The healing of a red mage is good enough to keep the party floating even without healers for a short while, but the healers are imperative in the long run. Red mage loses on damage however as a result.

And these "specialties", is what I'd like to see. Not reinventing the wheel.

[Reynhart]

Now, what is a bad idea is to bleed into different roles, unless the core would really be basic.

I think it's doable, with a little thought put in it. For me, it wasn't that great for SCH and SMN because SCH really felt rushed to avoid the "only one healer job". With the proper role actions, you have everything at your disposal to do any role with any class at low level. And at higher level, the job specific actions will fill in the gap.

A long time ago, I used Gladiator as an example, and how reorganizing the current PLD skills could give room for a sword/shield based DPS. It went that way :

List Of Gladiator Skills

• Fast Blade (1)
• Fight or Flight (2)
• Savage Blade (4)
• Riot Blade (6)
• Shield Stance (10)
• Total Eclipse (15)
• Shield Lob (18)
• Shield Bash (26)
• Rage Of Halone (30)
• Sword Stance (38)
• Tempered Will (42)
• Goring Blade (46)
• Royal Authority (48)
• Circle Of Scorn (50)

List Of Paladin Skills

• Flash (30)
• Sentinel (35)
• Spirits Within(40)
• Shield Swipe (45)
• Hallowed Ground (50)
• Sheltron (52)
• Bulwark (54)
• Divine Veil (56)
• Clemency (58)
• Cover (60)
• Intervention (62)
• Holy Spirit (64)
• Requiescat (68)
• Passage Of Arms (70)

List Of Paladin Traits

• Enhanced Vitality (20, 40 and 60)
• Enhanced Enmity (30 and 50)
• Oath Mastery (52)
• Divine Magic Mastery (64)
• Enhanced Cover (66)

Below lvl 30, the enmity boost of "Shield Stance" would be enough to keep ennemies on you, so that you can remove the enmity bonus on Savage Blade, Shield Lob and RoH, and we know that current role skills are enough to survive. The PLD Enmity traits would add enmity bonus to (at least) your "enmity" combo, Shield Lob and Circle of Scorn. In the end, you'd have the exact same PLD that now at level 70, but it wouldn't be that hard to create a physical DPS using the Glad skills from level 1 to 50 at its core + the DPS role skills.

[kikix12]

I think it's doable, with a little thought put in it.

That's the problem here. I have little to no faith in this team being able to do that. Is it doable? Yes. Same as lifting a small car on your head. But not everyone can lift one, just like not everyone can do make such bleeding.

For me, it wasn't that great for SCH and SMN because SCH really felt rushed to avoid the "only one healer job".

There were two expansions and multitude of patches since then, including ones that significantly changed the classes. And they still did not find a way to do it properly. They simply do not know how to deal with it.

And the cross role?! The way it was originally was rather...bad. The way it evolved into role skills was even worse and had no place in the game at all (it was counterproductive to the very intention for "role skills"). It's unfortunate, but this development team either lacks people capable of making mechanics that give customization or the higher ups ignore those people. Considering what Yoshida said during all manner of interviews, I'm willing to bet that they are outright ignored though. So there is little to no chance for a properly made system like that. If that is the case, they should stick to the simplest forms without touching the trinity system they decided on.

[Reynhart]

That's the problem here. I have little to no faith in this team being able to do that. Is it doable? Yes.

Frankly, I think the playerbase is the main culprit on that. "No build but the best, personal preference be damned", "no thoughts put in managing the character", "splitting bonus points is an absolute no-no even though at the end, they almost don't matter compared to the stats you gain from gear"...Why would a developper put any effort in doing that if the playerbase if gonna brush the very concept ?

There were two expansions and multitude of patches since then, including ones that significantly changed the classes. And they still did not find a way to do it properly.

SCH and SMN are two well loved and really useful jobs, so they're working fine. But, to be honest, my gripe with SMN has no tie to the branching jobs. I just find it stupid to have a pet job having so few action actually tied to its pets.

And the cross role?! The way it was originally was rather...bad. The way it evolved into role skills was even worse and had no place in the game at all (it was counterproductive to the very intention for "role skills").

The problem with role skills is that they're only useful if you want to change the archetype of a class. Having tank role skills for tank role classes (DRK included) is useless. That's why I hope that they'll try to go back and do it properly.

[CaptainLagbeard]

Rather than remaking and rebalancing Gladiator and Paladin just so could potentially slap a DPS job on it's side... It would be much easier to just create a completely new job.
It's not just a matter of the skills, there's the issue with gear as well. They shouldn't be using gear meant for GLA/PLD or MRD/WAR. They'd have terrible secondary stats and tenacity completely wasting a stat slot. Although I suppose, they could use the slightly higher def DRG gear to go with the shield... But they'd need their own weapons and shields separate from GLA/PLD ones. Which begs the question, if they're gonna make completely new weapons for them, why still base it off of GLA...

And since you can't really have only upsides, so they'd have to kind of be on the lower end of DPS in exchange for more survivability which would likely just end up hurting raids...

[Reynhart]

It would be much easier to just create a completely new job.

I really don't think it would. In my example, the only change to skills I made was separating the enmity bonus to a trait for PLD. Everything else is exactly the same as it is now, just with a different requirement, that doesn't need any "remaking" or "rebalancing".

They shouldn't be using gear meant for GLA/PLD or MRD/WAR.

At low level, no one would care, and at high level, they woul indeed wear different gear. Like you said in that case, probably LCN/DRG.

Which begs the question, if they're gonna make completely new weapons for them, why still base it off of GLA...

SCH, ACN and SMN all share a "book" type weapon, some of those books are simply restricted for each job. Not a big deal...