How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[thegreatonemal]

No, because back before Googling was a thing to do, we had Bradley Strategy Game guides for almost every type of game which might be news to you. Whether you google information or read it in a book/tutorial, it gives you the same end results. The means on how to achieve the result shouldn't matter here.

There were strategy guides for FF7 as well.

Your argument that people didn't use guides on how to play video games is a poor one. It's not just an MMO issue.

You literally need a guide to play Final Fantasy X-2 or you're not getting that 100% completion ending.

And all of those games had in game tutorials on the major game mechanics you brought those guides so you could find all the hidden optional items not how to play the game. knowing your rotation is the single most important thing when it comes to doing the end game content in this game. that IS an mmo issue.

[thegreatonemal]

...what? Depending on the game I'm googling stuff all the time - whenever I get stuck.
The problem with an MMO here is: You might not realise that you are "stuck", because 3, 7 or 23 other people are doing your work for you and pick up your slack. You dont get individual feedback, like you would get on a solo-game - you get a group feedback of "Your group did well enough to clear this content!"
In a solo-game that means you have done well enough and clearly understood what the game is asking of you. Here... it means nothing in regards to your indivual level of skill that your group managed to clear something.

Why would there be thousands of guides out there for solo-games? Why do I have official Walkthroughs, released by SE, for FFX, FFX-2 and FFXII on my shelf? (Okay, I actually didnt bought them because I needed help, but because I was hoping to learn more about the lore and stuff in the games... bit disappointing that there wasnt that much in them)

There are strategy guides out there for solo-games and when I couldnt complete a mission in HoMM V recently I discovered that there are foren-threads filled with people giving each other advice on how to beat those missions.

The problem clearly isnt that people dont want to consulte outside sources to beat a game - the problem is that the game doesnt tell them that they might "have" to - or put some more effort into figuring stuff out by themself, because for the most part, if you read your tooltips and thinking about the skills you have, you can come up with a rotation on your own thats good enough to beat content.

Stuck on a boss or something again not a major component of playing game like using your web attacks or swinging as spiderman.

But you hit the nail a bit with your other point. People go through this game clearing everything without much trouble for the most part msq dungeons: cleared Trials:cleared single player instances: no problems. All of this winning and they haven't been using their entire kit the whole time. The game doesn't require you too. So when savage and ex versions come out those same players hop into those thinking it will be a little harder but nothing they can't handle and they get stomped and not only have to deal with hitting that wall but the other players on the team brating them for not knowing that wall was there when the entire time the game has been telling them they win. To bring a single player example into it ff10 the remastered versions if you go back to besaid after you get the airship which is well before you even meet the final story boss you'll run into a dark aeon and get stomped there's no way you can kill it at that level. That's what players in this game are going through when they take the jump into savage with the added sting of all that winning you've been doing is a lie you weren't as much of a help as you could have been then and now you are a handicap and burden to your team now.

[Aerlana]

This might be news to you but most people don't google how to play video games they buy this problem is an mmo in general issue. when i play street fighter or ff7 i don't have to google how to do haduken or insert materia I press pause and go down to move list and have a tutorial on that very subject when it becomes relevant to the game that I can revisit anytime I please

i dont google "how to play" on a game when i dont want to do hard content.
I play on BDO, dont go PvP (the only place requesting to play well). So yes, i am probably a really bad player but heh, not a matter things i do dont need this...
I now play FFXIV mainly for RP, i know how to play because i am not amnesic, but more the game will progress, more my jobs will get changes the less i will be good. but doesnt matter i dont even go Xtrem.
I play PvE HL on wow as said, so there, my personnal play is important, i know it, i go where i need to know how to play well, reading theorycrafter topics, explanations about which talent etc.

If i find in heroic raid content a guy wanting a guide to know how to play. i will give him... and kick him the second after probably.


When i play slowly to a game, i dont care about guide, i run away from them to avoid any spoil!

But there, on MMORPG i play with X other people. Here on FFXIV most of time for major content, i go with 7 other people. Some of them probably took time to doing their best and more. it would be CLEARLY an INSULT to not ready a little myself for this content.

YES, when you come in such content, without mastering enough your job, it is an insult to the 7 other. same as saying "moron" to a guy. You speak about toxicity due to official parsing? THIS kind of guy you point is also toxicity.
We are not alone on MMORPG, so we all have to work to not being a deadweight... simply.



For the other point, GM will do as enough temporary ban as needed, and if after 3, 4 or 5 ban, complains continue to come about the guy, a perma-ban is not a matter.
If official parser increase this kind of toxicity it will be GMs' work to make it stop simply.
If GMs' cant manage it, the matter is not parser, but the GM team.

[Vidu]

And all of those games had in game tutorials on the major game mechanics you brought those guides so you could find all the hidden optional items not how to play the game. knowing your rotation is the single most important thing when it comes to doing the end game content in this game. that IS an mmo issue.

And its not like this game would be hiding your rotations from you - actual melee-combos light up for example and for jobs without them, like bard, blm or smn you get an explantion what the special "trick" to that job is. The game might not highlight the perfect opener for you, but I dare say that someone who looks at all their skills can actually figure a pretty decent one out without looking at a guide.

Is your Street Fighter game not only telling you how to use a combo - but also when? Do you the button-combination for Hadokuen along with "Oh, btw, you should use this in that sort of situation"? I know very little about fighting games like that, but the last time I saw a menu in one, it did tell me how to use certain combos, but it didnt tell me if I should use that punch when the opponent was knocked to the ground or had his back turned to me or something like that - thats left for me figure out... OR to consult a guide outside of the game.

And personally I dont only use guides to look up hidden objects - recently my boyfriend and I were playing FFIV: TAY and we had hard time with some demon walls. They didnt kill us constantly or anything like that, but the fights were so long and annoying that we were sure someone must have found a better way to handle them, so we googled it. Someone had found a better way to handle them - sadly it involved spells our casters didnt have yet.
But I have looked up plenty of stuff before thats not only looking for hidden treasures.

[Vidu]

Stuck on a boss or something again not a major component of playing game like using your web attacks or swinging as spiderman.

But you hit the nail a bit with your other point. People go through this game clearing everything without much trouble for the most part msq dungeons: cleared Trials:cleared single player instances: no problems. All of this winning and they haven't been using their entire kit the whole time. The game doesn't require you too. So when savage and ex versions come out those same players hop into those thinking it will be a little harder but nothing they can't handle and they get stomped and not only have to deal with hitting that wall but the other players on the team brating them for not knowing that wall was there when the entire time the game has been telling them they win. To bring a single player example into it ff10 the remastered versions if you go back to besaid after you get the airship (which is well before you even meet the final story boss you'll run into a dark aeon and get stomped there's no way you can kill it at that level. That's what players in this game are going through when they take the jump into savage with the added sting of all that winning you've been doing is a lie you weren't as much of a help as you could have been then and now you are a handicap and burden to your team now.

Thats my point though: If I'm stuck on a boss in a solo-game, its because of my lack of skill on some level and the game is telling me that. Now, it might be that I just didnt understand the bossfight itself, but it might also be that I was just playing very, very badly.

This game, as we both agree on, doesnt do that - but it has to do that before someone steps into endgame content.
The fight against Black Valefor isnt the moment for you to discover how the elemental spells work in FFX (...okay, partly, because it doesnt matter for this fight specifically) or how to execute a limitbreak or how to summon your own Aeon - just how Suzaku EX isnt the place to discover your rotation.
But FFX tells you "You are not ready yet", by having Valefor murder you.
FFXIV might not tell you that, if the other 7 people are more than ready to kill Suzaku, even with you being a burden.

But if this game were to show you that "Hey, on this job, you're actually doing rather poorly!" people could fix that before they become one. (And again: If they dont care, they dont deserve that kill.)

[thegreatonemal]

And its not like this game would be hiding your rotations from you - actual melee-combos light up for example and for jobs without them, like bard, blm or smn you get an explantion what the special "trick" to that job is. The game might not highlight the perfect opener for you, but I dare say that someone who looks at all their skills can actually figure a pretty decent one out without looking at a guide.

Is your Street Fighter game not only telling you how to use a combo - but also when? Do you the button-combination for Hadokuen along with "Oh, btw, you should use this in that sort of situation"? I know very little about fighting games like that, but the last time I saw a menu in one, it did tell me how to use certain combos, but it didnt tell me if I should use that punch when the opponent was knocked to the ground or had his back turned to me or something like that - thats left for me figure out... OR to consult a guide outside of the game.

And personally I dont only use guides to look up hidden objects - recently my boyfriend and I were playing FFIV: TAY and we had hard time with some demon walls. They didnt kill us constantly or anything like that, but the fights were so long and annoying that we were sure someone must have found a better way to handle them, so we googled it. Someone had found a better way to handle them - sadly it involved spells our casters didnt have yet.
But I have looked up plenty of stuff before thats not only looking for hidden treasures.

Yea they give you the barest of bones in this game but that isn't enough for ex and savage which we agree needs to change. The difference being I guess you think a parser is the answer. I don't think so as this game even at the highest levels doesn't really need that much detail to kill anything again unless your speed running or testing theories.

[Aerlana]

that IS an mmo issue.

All game are not the same...
When you go on versus fighting game, for the hardest fight, or PvP one, yo uhave to master your character, his combos.
When you go on RTS game, you have to know well each of your own units, how they are countered by ennemies units, how to counter ennemies units.
When you go to FPS, you know each weapon, what you can do with each, which to snipe, which to close fight. and you have to train your aiming (nothing in the game directly train your aiming, only you)


FFXIV and most MMORPG get tutorials. the leveling is a tutorial. you get a skill, a second, then you learn to play with both. a third skill come, and you have to understand how those 3 work together, then after many levels you get 20 skills, and some of those you had in begining did change a little. There is tutorial. But you know what, after understanding what is the best rotation (and it is confirmed by... parsers) you have to master it. and adapt on all fight (i am not doing strictly the same thing on all fight. some didnt need me to move a lot, other yes. but as BLM, when i move... )


The parser is not needed to know how to play the game, the parser is needed to know how to master your job !
Then yes some people needs guide to understand how to play their job... back in ARR i remember a paladin tanking a dongeon... spamming flash and halone... nothing else.

But when people always needs some guide to get at least a decent work (i dont ask the samurai to do 6k8 like the 75th percentile, but, please at least a 6k not 4k...) the matter is not mine, it is their matter. If they come to a content not ready enough, they waste the time of the 7 other people that TOOK the time, before the content, to be ready...


the parser is not a solution to the lack of steps of learning. but it stays a tool to master your job more, more and more. the same guy working with parser will progress faster than without... Because he will faster and more clearly know what are his mistakes

[HyoMinPark]

Yea they give you the barest of bones in this game but that isn't enough for ex and savage which we agree needs to change. The difference being I guess you think a parser is the answer. I don't think so as this game even at the highest levels doesn't really need that much detail to kill anything again unless your speed running or testing theories.

Ultimate says hi.

Ultimate is content where you do need that much detail to clear. It’s the only content in this game where 7 people literally cannot carry an 8th who refuses to contribute. They can’t even carry an 8th who doesn’t have a decent understanding of the job they’re playing—my UwU static’s first NIN decided to go MNK for two weeks, and we actually missed DPS checks on some of the primals because he did not have a decent understanding of how MNK functioned compared to his understanding of NIN, and the rest of us just could not push enough personal damage to make up for his massive shortcoming. We did a V6S weekly to help one member get some pieces for SMN (since it was determined that we actually needed a caster for caster LB3), and our NIN - on MNK - did 200 more DPS than me... a BRD. And we were equally geared, except they had an i370 weapon where as I had an i375. Other than that, we were both BiS.

Clearly there was an issue with regards to their performance, and what told us that? A parser.

Parsers can’t force people to improve, but guides and handholding can’t force them to improve either. This game literally holds the hands of every player through most content, yet people still make threads complaining that MSQ instances are “too unforgiving”. The only ones who can make a player improve are themselves - they have to have the motivation to do so.

At least with a parser, determining exactly who is being a burden in weekly clear parties for Savage or primal mount farms would be a lot more obvious, and could be instantly addressed rather than wasting several pulls trying to guess who the problem is (for those that aren’t already parsing the encounter, anyways - not like we’re allowed to say anything though; we’re apparently expected to just grin and bear it). And it would also be nice to have so that the problem player cannot spin the situation around, and try to blame another player - because, boy, I’ve seen that a lot: you call out the underperformer for underperforming, and they either try to blame you or another party member for their shortcomings.

[RuleofThree]

So I've been thinking about this alot, reading other posts in here and the like, and one thing kept being brought up that no one seems to question: A tool for parsing can be used as a learning tool. I agree, as a whole, I mean, you'd have to come up with some compelling argument to try to say that information - no matter how it was gotten - (in this case parsing) isn't useful in some way to help better yourself. The problem I am having is this: how is it a learning tool? I mean yea, it has the numbers, but the numbers mean nothing when left by their own. I did some looking around on fflogs (as well as I could anyway, I don't know anyone specifically to look up, and evidently I have nothing logged on there) to see if I can find something...but came up short.

So the question is: How can this be a learning tool, when there seems to be nothing to compare the evidence with? Say for example, we get an official parsing tool...that's neat, but how is one going to know they are doing good or bad? What is the benchmark for dps for a dps in iLevel 180 gear? A tank in iLevel 260 gear? I can see how that would be useful, cause then I can take my numbers and put it to a benchmark...but as it stands now..I see nothing...just a bunch of useless numbers that people in current gear doing current content are proud to have public. If this parsing tool was to be official and public for all...well...not everyone is 70th level in alpha savage gear.

[Sigma-Astra]

And all of those games had in game tutorials on the major game mechanics you brought those guides so you could find all the hidden optional items not how to play the game. knowing your rotation is the single most important thing when it comes to doing the end game content in this game. that IS an mmo issue.

Whether you buy the guide with the intention of using it only for the hidden weapons, items, dungeons...matters not because those are basically personal reasons for finding it useful or not useful that varies on a case by case. Those guides still had basic combat tutorials right in the front of the guide for you to use. Literally, the first couple pages of my Final Fantasy X/X-2 HD remaster guide has information regarding the characters, the combat system, and the Sphere Grid on the off chance that the person playing FFX just keeps smashing the [X] button to bypass it.

XIV gives you subtle hints of what and how you should be using your abilities through your job quests. That is your tutorial, not to mention, telling you to read your tooltips. We also have the Novice Hall now, if that's not enough. Players need to start paying attention to what's going on or what the NPC's tell you to do, instead of thinking that they can coast along remaining ignorant about everything else.

Because, I honestly and sincerely doubt that SE is going to make a tutorial for players on how to do EX trials and Savage correctly in the detailed way that everyone wishes it to be. At least with a parser, it would tell you that A) "You're either good enough at what you do to not be a burden to your team" or B) "You're not" based on the readouts. If you're meeting Suzaku's enrage at 20% and each DPS is only shelling in 3,500 at best according to the parser, then you'll get a clear indication that your DPS is the problem of the party, not your tanks or healers, and they either need to improve in quality for the team as a whole or they need to be shipped out to sea if they refuse to improve.