How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[Penthea]

Let me pivot to a real world example. Image if you were a people manager. You have an employee who does X amount of work in 8 hours. You have another employee who does the same X amount of work in 8 hours, but he requires a special chair to be comfortable.

Is he less efficient of a worker? In terms of productivity, no, but he did come with a slightly higher cost (requires special chair due to disability, etc.), but per volume he still produces the same amount of output.

That's what these tools are. They may handhold and help, but they still improve the playerbase. You cannot refute that, it's a flat out undeniable fact.

Wow. You try to argue that parsers can noticeably improve the playerbase because supposedly Blizzard said they did. I tell you that there are add-ons that can greatly assist in doing a rotation so such a statement should not be taken for gospel...and now you give me an example that basically says "doesn't matter if someone gets handholded with add-ons, better dps is still better dps".

So am I to take this as you are also advocating for an official handholding rotation helper too?

[Jijifli]

So am I to take this as you are also advocating for an official handholding rotation helper too?

Do it. I actually am 100% okay with this.

Because there are players that already can't do regular combo lines in Stormblood content. They desperately need it since we can't tell them what's wrong because that's toxic.

[Shurrikhan]

Wow. You try to argue that parsers can noticeably improve the playerbase because supposedly Blizzard said they did. I tell you that there are add-ons that can greatly assist in doing a rotation so such a statement should not be taken for gospel...and now you give me an example that basically says "doesn't matter if someone gets handholded with add-ons, better dps is still better dps".

So am I to take this as you are also advocating for an official handholding rotation helper too?

Read the analogy again. Several times if necessary. Their performance is unchanged. One simply requires a larger initial investment on the employer's part. There is no continuous intervening cost, however. The same is true of making information conveniently accessible. It has an initial development cost (much of which would simply be repealing previous conscious decisions to hide information) and perhaps a fair bit of revision to ensure that the "at a glance" information is relevant and accurate (to what may be distinct perspectives, due to differing goals), but nothing continuous.

The same can be said of providing proper job guides through in-game learning activities, improving off of where WoW's Proving Grounds and XIV's Guildhests left a lackluster shallow attempt at the same. That involves initial cost. It does not involve continuous hand-holding in the actual content, even if the initial learning activities may be very guided.

Our concern is how many players can participate -- without burdening their fellow players -- in most or all content. A bit of investment cost, its benefits plopped comfortably into the players' laps (targeted at some but useful to all), may be more than worthwhile.

[greytonberry]

Honestly, I wouldn't join any party that says that in the first place. I'm very strict about what groups I join, don't want to be in one that unleashes the wrath of Bahamut on a party because of one mistake, etc. Tend to make my own parties as a result.

People keep saying stuff like this. I have almost never seen it, even when i joined an o1s group on my i280 monk and did greyest percentile dps. Even when I play a job I've never played before in extreme content. Even when all the dps are below the tanks or heaven forbid the healers too. If people are consistently seeing these types of groups they REALLY need to look inwards and stop griefing the other players in this game. Like I thought i was going to far playing jobs I've never played at 70 before and didn't have gear for, but if every party you join you're worried someone is going to berate you for your dps or your performance in general, please just do us all a favor and learn how to play the game and also realize that the issue is not with other people it is with you.

Not calling you out, just thought your comment about people yelling about dps/mistakes was relevant.

[Paladinleeds]

People keep saying stuff like this. I have almost never seen it, even when i joined an o1s group on my i280 monk and did greyest percentile dps. Even when I play a job I've never played before in extreme content. Even when all the dps are below the tanks or heaven forbid the healers too. If people are consistently seeing these types of groups they REALLY need to look inwards and stop griefing the other players in this game. Like I thought i was going to far playing jobs I've never played at 70 before and didn't have gear for, but if every party you join you're worried someone is going to berate you for your dps or your performance in general, please just do us all a favor and learn how to play the game and also realize that the issue is not with other people it is with you.

Not calling you out, just thought your comment about people yelling about dps/mistakes was relevant.

I actually see the PFs up quite a bit on the Chaos datacentre. I've even seen plenty "1 death = kick" "1 wipe = disband" type parties on the Chaos datacentre. Even if I was the best at the game, I still wouldn't join those types of parties. Yes, I want to farm, but I want a good atmosphere, not absolute perfection. I don't mind the odd mistake in my parties, but there's many groups on Chaos that demand absolute perfection. I've even seen it in learning parties on Chaos!

And yes, for the most part I'm talking about the PF descriptions (so I don't even go into them). That's the beauty of PF... all the groups demanding perfection up there, whereas I want something more relaxed? Make my own group! But the experiences in learning parties, yeah, I've seen it in my own parties (not from me though)

[Sigma-Astra]

I actually see the PFs up quite a bit on the Chaos datacentre. I've even seen plenty "1 death = kick" "1 wipe = disband" type parties on the Chaos datacentre. Even if I was the best at the game, I still wouldn't join those types of parties. Yes, I want to farm, but I want a good atmosphere, not absolute perfection. I don't mind the odd mistake in my parties, but there's many groups on Chaos that demand absolute perfection. I've even seen it in learning parties on Chaos!

Those are the kinds of parties that you just ignore like the LootMaster ones in farm parties. I made a Niddhog EX farm party yesterday because I really wanted the scale for the DRG spear, had nothing but nice and pleasant people all around.

I got my scale, 3 people got their lanners, two people got their weapons, and another person got a scale.

[Legion88]

I actually see the PFs up quite a bit on the Chaos datacentre. I've even seen plenty "1 death = kick" "1 wipe = disband" type parties on the Chaos datacentre. Even if I was the best at the game, I still wouldn't join those types of parties. Yes, I want to farm, but I want a good atmosphere, not absolute perfection. I don't mind the odd mistake in my parties, but there's many groups on Chaos that demand absolute perfection. I've even seen it in learning parties on Chaos!

And yes, for the most part I'm talking about the PF descriptions (so I don't even go into them). That's the beauty of PF... all the groups demanding perfection up there, whereas I want something more relaxed? Make my own group! But the experiences in learning parties, yeah, I've seen it in my own parties (not from me though)

I don't see such learning parties in PF and i'm on Chaos datacenter too.
I see learning parties with special practice goals who demand that you know the upleading mechanics but that should be normal.

[Bhearil]

Considering the cesspool that has become the thread everyone can concur that is a very polarizing issue, so its very unlikely(if not impossible) that FF14 gets an official parser ever. Those who want to parse themselves just keep using the unofficial parser, since SE wont do anything against you unless you start boasting about it (which is not the objective of the parser right? its for "improving" not "e-pening" unless you wanna use a parser on a toxic manner) so people can just use for themselves, on their static or as a complement to theorycrafting.

End of the discussion and everyone wins

[MageBlack]

Considering the cesspool that has become the thread everyone can concur that is a very polarizing issue, so its very unlikely(if not impossible) that FF14 gets an official parser ever. Those who want to parse themselves just keep using the unofficial parser, since SE wont do anything against you unless you start boasting about it (which is not the objective of the parser right? its for "improving" not "e-pening" unless you wanna use a parser on a toxic manner) so people can just use for themselves, on their static or as a complement to theorycrafting.

End of the discussion and everyone wins

I agree. except for the limitations of PS4 users, anyone who wants to use a parser or would get value from it, is already using one.

[Aerlana]

I'm just going to give up on this thread. No one wants to face the fact that parsers are tools that can fuel multiple things, including toxicity, because they're being wilfully narrow minded and only thinking of how it can benefit themselves. I hope SE don't catch on to the "there will always be jerks" justification that allows people to shrug dismissively at the bad side effects of something, because then the game would be headed down a dark path.

It is with the way you think that there is no more chat in feast... to get off a tool that helped toxic people to be toxic...

in ALL game i played (MMORPG, MOBA, FPS mainly) there were always the same kind of toxicity, adapted to the game, and when toxicity was away, it was because game did throw it away simply.
I remember when we had finally the readycheck in FF... people did have fun spamming this in raid24... was sooo wonderfull.

Tools dont create artisan. But artisans uses tools.
Chat, readycheck, parser, they are only the way those people uses to get toxic.

Maybe i have a really dark view of Human, yes...

End of the discussion and everyone wins

Or everyone looses in fact.
I am pro parser, but i would prefer SE to work on blocking any parser than the today situation.

Official parser = loose for the "anti" and PS4 players get their own. pro parsers on PS4 are happy >9000 and other smiles

But, in the current state, PS4 players doesnt have parser, and the "anti parser" get a situation where their FFlogs stats will make them allow or not to go in parties to some content (more it continue, harder it will be to find a party that dont check FFlogs). This is a way of toxicity for some part of them. (it seems a great part)



Without the PS4 matter, i wouldnt speak about official parser. As said by blackmage, if you go on end game content, you can easily discover where to get parser, ACT mainly, they are good...