White Raven earring given out at The Rising event 2018

[BillyKaplan]

How you came to this conclusion based on Amiral's post is anyone's guess, 'cause that sure as hell wasn't what he said.

You beat the content. You know it, the people you ran it with know it, and there's even a date on when you got the achievement saying you got it when it was still relevant, when it was still at its peak, before any nerfs or power creeps. As such, I don't see the need for a 'trophy' people seem so hung up about. Especially when everyone knows the weapons will be redundant comes as early as, what, next week with 4.4? So the only good thing these trophies are good for is glamour and bragging rights, the latter of which you have thanks to other ways, too.
I'd let you argue that the White Raven earrings probably don't have that, but then I'll repeat the point these are unknown trophies to most of the playerbase so bragging rights feel a bit meh.

[Darrcyphfeid]

As such, I don't see the need for a 'trophy' people seem so hung up about.

Seems to me the people that don't have the trophies are more hung up about those trophies than the people that actually have them.

Like the dude that posted in this thread 42 times - you're still #1 if you're reading this - being a condescending tool, using whatever strawman suited his fancy to downplay concerns. Just so he could tell people to get over themselves.

I'm not saying you, BillyKaplan, are like him. I'm just making an observation about the people this thread has attracted.

Especially when everyone knows the weapons will be redundant comes as early as, what, next week with 4.4? So the only good thing these trophies are good for is glamour and bragging rights

FTFY

And welcome to the entire game. Nothing matters except glamour, and only until they decide to devalue the work necessary to obtain said glamour. Either through giving it away to everyone directly or making it easily cheeseable with undersized parties.

I'd let you argue that the White Raven earrings probably don't have that, but then I'll repeat the point these are unknown trophies to most of the playerbase so bragging rights feel a bit meh.

So if trophies aren't super duper visible they're just meh and unknown (because they're rare/too small to quickly identify) and don't mean anything. But if they are super duper visible, and you use them, you're just bragging.

Is that what you're saying? 'Cause that's what it looks like you're saying.

And in either event Square took those trophies (White Ravens) away anyway. Soo... yeah. There's the point of Amiral's post: He's having a hell of a time finding people that want to drop 100 hours/750+ pulls/whatever asinine metric of effort into content when they can't be even remotely assured that time and effort will be respected. Will be worth anything.

[BillyKaplan]

Is that what you're saying? 'Cause that's what it looks like you're saying.

I'd sooner say I don't see the point to such trophies, as I don't need it to prove to myself and my friends what I've achieved in the game. Which does lead to a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' stance, admittedly.
Specifically speaking about the White Raven earrings, the problem with that is how, shall we say, niche the content they came from is. Like I said, until this blew up, most of the playerbase didn't even know about them. If I see someone with the UwU weapon and title, it's different than someone who might've cleared something even harder that I have never heard of. This also has to do with how, for better or worse, trophies (arguably) lose their worth over time.
That said, once a trophy has been acknowledged as such, I personally don't see the problem with giving it away depending on how much time has passed. Let's assume what for you would be a worst case scenario - UwU gets the unsync option later on. Everyone's running around with the title and weapon. But by then there'd be a new Ultimate to throw yourself against, and that's the trophy everyone will be valuing, if at all.
It reminds me of a poster who occasionally visits the forum and complains about how the Ponies can be obtained via the Unsync option. Because the ARR Primals used to be hard. Still are synced, mind, lord knows that's the bane of the Mentor roulette. But few people care about the ponies with birds around, and few people care about the birds with the doggos around. The trophies that matter exist within a sliding window.

they can't be even remotely assured that time and effort will be respected. Will be worth anything.

And therein lies the crux of the matter and the core difference of values and opinions at the heart of this debate. What do you define as 'time and effort being respected'? What will give it worth? Having cleared an encounter from half a decade ago no one can access anymore? You know you cleared it. Everyone involved knows you cleared it. What gear you won from that instance has long since outlived its usefulness and can, at best, be used for glamour (which people will appreciate as glamour, not a badge of honor), or proof to yourself that you've performed that deed. But then you already know you did it. Maybe you have some old 1.0 achievement and title to show for it, too. You did it, and it felt darn good. What more?

[Darrcyphfeid]

That said, once a trophy has been acknowledged as such, I personally don't see the problem with giving it away depending on how much time has passed. Let's assume what for you would be a worst case scenario - UwU gets the unsync option later on. Everyone's running around with the title and weapon. But by then there'd be a new Ultimate to throw yourself against, and that's the trophy everyone will be valuing, if at all.

I can't help but wonder if this isn't why there's no Ultimate in 4.5, really. The acknowledgement that it's basically the same treadmill, but with an even higher fatigue and burnout rate. Now, more power to people that would consistently and continuously enjoy having a new Ultimate every 6 months, but I still can't help but wonder how soon the luster would fade. How many of the Ultimate weapons and titles would be given away before a large enough portion of that niche says "enough, I'm done," and just starts waiting to be handed them for free.

I wonder how many would need to convert to that mentality before the entire Ultimate series gets canned and then, inevitably, all of the Ultimate weapons and titles are freely available and none have value. It is a pretty small group, after all, especially outside of Japan. Perhaps larger than the number of people still playing that had earned the White Ravens via Rivenroad HM, but maybe not by a significant amount?

It reminds me of a poster who occasionally visits the forum and complains about how the Ponies can be obtained via the Unsync option. Because the ARR Primals used to be hard. Still are synced, mind, lord knows that's the bane of the Mentor roulette. But few people care about the ponies with birds around, and few people care about the birds with the doggos around. The trophies that matter exist within a sliding window.

This actually kind of bothers me, too, as you may surmise from my going to bat against the undersized party toggle.

It's still a matter of devaluing, mind you, but with the EX Primals and such it's also a matter of content droughts. I can't help but consider how the game might be during those periods of extreme downtime, when so many are bored (and/or unsubbing), if they had something to work on. If the ARR and HW Primals weren't just unsync fodder and people still cycled through them, both in pursuit of the mounts and to help friends/because they enjoy the fight. Yes, I know it makes extra work for the development team to try and keep those balanced when doing job reconfiguring during expansion launches. But surely that was one avenue towards longevity with the game. Certainly they themselves had considered it at least once since they added the increased orchestrion roll drop rate when doing Twintania, Nael and Bahamut with minimum item level toggled.

They just can't produce enough content, within the current expansion itself, to sustain the burn-through rate. I'm not saying this is good content by any means, but even comparing Beast Tribe quests they had you plugging away longer in ARR to cap them out than in HW.

You did it, and it felt darn good. What more?

Gonna vary wildly person to person, I'm sure. For me, I have no real idea what I'm looking for. I'll know it when I see it, though, and I know what we've got and where we're going ain't it. That's about all I can offer on that front, again as someone that isn't even being enticed to go raid.


---

And therein lies the crux of the matter and the core difference of values and opinions at the heart of this debate. What do you define as 'time and effort being respected'? What will give it worth?

This is actually chiefly why I'm so engaged in this topic to begin with.

I present Story Time with Darrc. It's kinda long and mostly off the subject so, as per my usual practice, I'm putting it into a spoiler tag.

Just so we're all on the same page, I've mentioned previously that my most "noteworthy" accomplishment insofar as raiding goes has been clearing A4S. I did that at the end of HW, so before undersized was an option but post-i270 being freely available, and while it wasn't a complete joke, it was already a pale imitation of what it was. I still use the Gordian Mails of Maiming and Striking because I really like them, but... I don't really have a sense of pride or accomplishment to go along with it.

I have some memories of hilarious tomfoolery with the friends I played with, but... 3 of those friends already no longer play and it's been less than 18 months, I think, since this memory was formed. And the ones that do, like me, are holding on by the tiniest of threads; logging in for just a few scant hours per week. A whopping two hours for me personally.

I cleared all of the ARR Primals and all of Coil minimum item level before that, because we wanted to start raiding and I needed practice being just a couple months into the game. It was fun, and challenging, and I became a much better player. I also learned to hate certain fights, but that's a whole different tangent. We started raiding in Midas tier. Casual-midcore group, we busted our collective behinds for ~5 months. We did crafted HQ gear, the NM raid gear, Anima Relics every time a new step launched, I spent dozens of hours both in queue for and inside of Weeping City of Mhach trying to get my tank pants the week it launched. 22 partial and complete runs, I don't know how many abandons, all while on tank and trying to explain mechanics to people well enough to clear. Anything at all to give us an advantage, to progress, to do whatever on.

It took us about 4 weeks, at two nights of 2 1/2 hours a week, to clear A5S. We had some lineup issues off and on so it was maybe a little tougher than it otherwise should have been, even for us. We eventually got to the third robot in A6S, but kept getting ganked by the four Goblins that spawned at cardinal directions. We could never really figure out what was going on, so we'd get sent back to the first robot - after already spending weeks progressing to even see that far - and try to get that far again. First robot we eventually got down pat, but there were always issues on the second robot and we'd get to the third robot maybe 15% of the time. Just to die again.

A6S broke us. Next tier was ~3 weeks removed when we just said to hell with it and went on hiatus. I announced the next day that I was done, and left the group so the leader would have ample time to find a replacement. After all those months of progressing, gearing and working my ass off... I have a single Midan Earring of Slaying for my efforts. I keep it in Retainer's storage as a testament to my folly. And to remind myself that even if I had managed to get to A8S, had managed to down A8S, my reward would not really be gear. No, my reward would be yet another weekly lockout. For gear that would mean nothing to the next raid tier, for glamour that may or may not be individually pleasing. My reward would be memories of suffering briefly interspersed with humor, and wishing we were doing something - anything - else together.

That's what raiding is to me in this game, and that's why I'll defend the trophies others earn. Because I sure as hell didn't earn the Faustlet minion I'll eventually have. And in the process of defending the trophies, should Square finally listen to some feedback, maybe I'll find a reason to try again instead of my current trajectory that sees me once again unsubscribed entirely. I think I might actually be at the point where I don't want to do anything until EoL/maintenance mode time. Surely by then everything relevant now will be soloable. lol

[BillyKaplan]

If the ARR and HW Primals weren't just unsync fodder and people still cycled through them, both in pursuit of the mounts and to help friends/because they enjoy the fight.

I'll tell you one thing for certain - a lot less people would've run them. I've went into Ex trials on-level before but many, many friends of mine don't bother. They don't like the difficulty, they don't think they're good enough, etc. Now we're pony farming. It gives me something to do as I farm tank mount points, and they want the shiny. So unsync gave a lot more content to a lot more people than the alternatives.

But surely that was one avenue towards longevity with the game.

Extreme-trial running crowds sadly probably aren't big enough to warrant half the effort that would've required.

Gonna vary wildly person to person, I'm sure. For me, I have no real idea what I'm looking for. I'll know it when I see it, though, and I know what we've got and where we're going ain't it. That's about all I can offer on that front, again as someone that isn't even being enticed to go raid.

And as I said before, then maybe this isn't the game for you and yours, and the story only made me think that all the more Because honestly, it sounds like the content itself just isn't fun for you. Wishing you were doing anything else? I can sort of see how getting a good weapon that lasted for longer would help mitigate it a bit, but what would you even use it for? The next hard fight, which you wouldn't enjoy again?
Things I don't enjoy in the game, I don't do, regardless of prize. That includes even the most tedious grinds, liking filling out my fishing log, and getting the Centurio tiger, and running Mentor roulette. Which, now that I think about it, are all actual examples of trophies that don't lose value. Even with using SB fishing skills, getting Feast of Famine done was a pain in the neck, and whenever I'd see other fishers trying for those fish, we'd instantly bond, knowing what we were there for. They're not going to nerf Mentor roulette, and they're not going to nerf the tiger without overhauling the hunt system.
But at the same time, these are all casual contents, in the sense they take a time investment but aren't inherently hard (with the exception of the occasional Extreme primal in Mentor Roulette). Savage, in comparison, takes less time. It certainly shouldn't take years like the Centurio tiger. The problem, then, is with how the battle trophies of this game are earned and how long they last, which so far, other than PvP-Feast awards, have all been rather fleeting.

[Darrcyphfeid]

I'll tell you one thing for certain - a lot less people would've run them. I've went into Ex trials on-level before but many, many friends of mine don't bother. They don't like the difficulty, they don't think they're good enough, etc. Now we're pony farming. It gives me something to do as I farm tank mount points, and they want the shiny. So unsync gave a lot more content to a lot more people than the alternatives.

There's definitely a good bit of give and take, I'll grant you that. My group is similar, and we do appreciate undersized parties to an extent as touched upon in the copypastas on the other page. Like back in HW, we would farm the ARR Primals undersize when 8 of us weren't around, and do the HW ones when there were or we could rope in friends-of-friends. We started doing that in SB as well, but by then we had more than half of the HW Primals crossed off and all of the ARR ones, including Nightmare, so we've reached the inevitable: SB or bust. Or, I guess more accurately at the moment, "should we do this now or just wait a couple months."

And as I said before, then maybe this isn't the game for you and yours, and the story only made me think that all the more Because honestly, it sounds like the content itself just isn't fun for you. Wishing you were doing anything else? I can sort of see how getting a good weapon that lasted for longer would help mitigate it a bit, but what would you even use it for? The next hard fight, which you wouldn't enjoy again?

Context is key there, though. Like when I say that I wanted to be doing literally, absolutely anything else? I mean that. But I only felt that way after we were already stuck on the fight for about two months, and then we stayed stuck for another two or so beyond that. We never once got past the Goblin quartet, so there was no sense of progression. Rolling your face about the keyboard would've been as productive!

A6S was just a really weirdly/badly placed roadblock. I actually went rogue a tad at the end of HW and downed both A9S and A10S with ease just jumping into PFs just before (A9S) and just after (A10S) they were taken off of lockout. The problem there, of course, was not having the friend group there with me and the aforementioned issue with reward payment (though not so much an issue if there's no lockout).

But yes, it's definitely possible that I'm just not compatible with the game. There were things besides Savage that I enjoyed, that kept me around, but SB has eroded or taken those away too. The Relics, PvP, dungeons, even lesser things like NM and Alliance raid gear (read: no accuracy stat = no cares). I don't do the things that I don't enjoy, and I really try not to complain, but... yeah. Devaluation, for me at least, as far as the eye can see. I don't have a whole lot left that appeals to me.

Hell I can't even be certain that I can log in at 9pm on Friday, our usual gathering time, and have a good connection these days.

Even with using SB fishing skills, getting Feast of Famine done was a pain in the neck

I dunno, I didn't have much trouble with this personally. RNG and all that, yeah, but the HW and SB abilities helped a good deal.

To hell with Centurio Tiger though! I was one of the more active hunt relayers on Faerie for 3 years, and I'm like a quarter done? I mean granted that's because I relayed them but didn't actually stick around/head out unless it was X.5 and I needed upgrades, but still.

The problem, then, is with how the battle trophies of this game are earned and how long they last, which so far, other than PvP-Feast awards, have all been rather fleeting.

Yep. And given the other thread that showed up today, I can't imagine PvP is that far away.

I'm not asking for a miracle or to suddenly 180 the game though, I'm just looking for a start. Any sign that they're changing approach/direction. Open communication can surely handle the rest from there.

Or my subscription can run out and I'll keep doing what I'm doing now, sans posting here since you need to have logged in within 14 days to post. I'm generally okay with either outcome.

[Mizunoko]

People are so backwards with this. it's NOT the legacy players that are being entitled at all
it's the people that feel entitled to get the same things legacy players have without meeting the same requirements. and it's not just legacy stuff its generally everything in the game.

As far back as ARR if you smashed coil you got a rather prestigious and exclusive minion and final witness title.. they were rewards of your accomplishments... yet people are apparantly entitled because they wanted those things to remain exclusive but they're only exlcusive because other players are too lazy to get them themselves. if 100% of the population had smashed coil in ARR and got the final witness title those apparantly entitled players wouldnt care. because everyone had done the smae thing they did to get it.

the real entitlement though comes from people who want those same things but are not prepared to put the time or effort into getting them and expect / demand the requirements to change or alternative ways to accquire be added so they can get those items they feel entitled to because someone else has them..

the lack of prestige or value in any of this games rewards is one of the biggest reasons players just arent motivated to step up there game and rise to challenges. and why many players dont stick around very long.

but the entitled players are the ones who want the stuff other players have without meeting the same requirements they met to get it..

its the same with things like ultimate. players who have beaten it and gotten those rewards aren't "entitled" they are accomplished and prestigious.
the entitled people are the ones who expect easier ways to get those rewards in future and destroy the value an prestige associated there with..



It may not take away the sentiment but it destroys the prestige and accomplishment.

Prestige is not a bad thing. it's one of humanity's biggest motivators. present in every single aspect of human life and progress. from being the guy that lands the hot girl. to the scientists that cures cancer. or the guy that lands a prestigious promotion at work.

it's like someone said earlier in the thread if you give everyone that ran a race a medal. the guy who actually came in first basically gets shafted his medal is worthless because everyones got one

Exactly! I couldn't have said it better myself. Everyone else upset because we have exclusive items and they think they should have them too for not accomplishing what we have are nothing more than your typical SJW's (in my opinion at least). They need to man up and work hard like we did for those exclusives when the time happens instead of wait and expect it to be handed to them you can work hard for them like we have. Take your participation trophy and get out.

[Mizunoko]

You just answered your own question. Because it holds significant value to the people of people that have supported this game since day 1, and the game itself. Again, you should feel happy and quite frankly lifted that the game is celebrating what you participated in.

"Hold on let me just make up an earring that holds no apparent value, and celebrate it"

SE doesn't need to rerelease exclusive items to celebrate the past. There are obviously other ways to go about it without ruining the achievements and trophies of the people who worked hard to earn the items and prestige they have earned. That's common sense really. You don't HAVE to release the same items just to celebrate that event. Just rehost the event with a replica or different item. It's still relevant and celebratory.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

Exactly! I couldn't have said it better myself. Everyone else whining because we have exclusive items and they think they should have them too for not accomplishing what we have are nothing more than you typical SJW. They need man up and work like we did for those exclusives when the time happens instead of wait and expect it to be handed to them you can work hard for them like we have. Take your participation trophy and get out.

They weren't the ones making a thread to whine. You were.

[Mizunoko]

It's entirely possible that the dev team who said "you only have a limited time to get these rewards before the server shuts down and the fight will be done" truly did believe it. They may not even be the same team that worked on ARR. So in a sense, they'd be right. So far as they knew, these things would never have been made available again.

Although it seems like right now, these earrings are a dividing issue, I believe the intent was to help bring the 1.0 and 2.0 players together in a way that would be meaningful to both.

That doesn't change the fact that it was SE's own employees that made those promises and the right thing to do by there loyal customers is to take responsibility and keep true to those promises. There is literally NO reason they couldn't have released something else. No one is going to B**** and moan because they couldn't get ugly boring earring instead of literally anything else. The possibilities are endless. Even i would have loved something else. Still though, it doesn't matter what argument anyone presents because it is a proven fact that SE made promises and SE broke them. That is not a good thing to show your customers as a company.