We Really Need To Talk About The State And Path Of FFXIV

[lillucario]

...Why not? Do you know what MMR (Matchmaking Rating) is and what it does? A competitive PvP game is only as "difficult" as your opponents make it and players are typically matched with/against people of similar skill via MMR. So you don't need to adjust to the difficulty if you don't want to, the game will adjust the difficulty to suit you.

What you are doing is expecting the players to cater to the game, rather than the game catering to the players. That's incidentally exactly what Yoshida does when he tells you to "Please learn how to do that" about grinding in Pagos. And I'm not sure about you, but I didn't "learn how to do that", because I didn't find it fun. I simply skipped Eureka entirely and play something more enjoyable in the meantime. It's no different with difficulty.

That said, it is indeed the case that not all content, or all games, are for everyone. You pick your audience by catering to them. A game like Dark Souls is marketed as unforgiving from the start and caters to people who like such an experience quite well - as a result, most of its players are happy with it. Players who prefer something easier will likely not pick it up, play other games instead and be happy with that.
And trying to change the audience halfway through is bound to lead to alienation and issues. As it stands, if someone doesn't enjoy wiping in a lvl 20 dungeon, this game is, in fact, for them, because the chances of it happening are close to zero. Changing it means that the game is indeed no longer for them, but rather a different set of people, so the players you already have leave and new players come in. You better make sure that's worth the trade.

Using Pagos as an example is probably the worst you could do to argue your point. It's a completely different style of content like Reynhart said and there isn't really anything to learn, it's just killing mindless trash mobs endlessly.

The game right now is catering more to the casual side of things leaving the people who desire a challenge to look elsewhere for it when before Stormblood they definitely had their fill. Ultimate has helped alleviate this issue somewhat but we only got 2 of those throughout the entire expansion. It also really doesn't help that the early savage floors have dropped down to the level of extreme trials because we're just getting less and less and people's disinterest in the content is really starting to show.

[Hamada]

The problem is we, as a community, permit people in terrible outdated gear because it's "mean" to kick someone with a level 50 weapon in Mettle or the autoattacking black mage in Doma Castle.

It's our fault.

Maybe, I would likely do the same thing. My GF on the other hand has no tolerance for it since she knows most do not speak up and give them passes. So she will flat out tell them the problem and remove them saying "sorry, you are simply not ready to take on this place yet"

Please re-read my post.. I edited it after the original version.

I saw it, it simply does not address my point:

THAT'S MY POINT!! I don't think you're realizing that we're talking about the same gearing issue with the "All Classes" tag.

SB fixed the issue with SB GEAR meaning SB gear doesn't have any gear with "All Classes". That was my point!!! And I specifically pointed out how it was an issue because ARR gear and HW gear WEREN'T FIXED!

I do NOT CARE if new gear does not have "all classes" on it, again not my point in saying SB did not fix the issue. The issue is you can bring that "All gear" EVEN IN CURRENT CONTENT IF you meet the ilevel average. So nope, SB did not fix anything.



Reason? Because the Japanese player base likely does not do this. They only changed SB right because they felt that is all that was necessary, and that was to stop tanks wearing str gear in current cap. The SB change to new right gear has nothing to do with NA player base cheesing the duty finder like this, all it had to do with tanks wearing str gear, and had to take a second measure to stop it by adding str to tank jewelry.

I mean...at some point, the fault starts to lie with the players themselves. Even if one used a jump potion, you should have enough common knowledge about MMOs to know that you should keep your gear updated as you level up. The mistakes that the devs make, yes, they should be called at to fix. But if, as a player, you've made it to the second dungeon, and your right side is empty or is under 200 (I'm being very lenient on this...really, you should be at least 240-260 by the time you hit SB), then the fault lies entirely with that player doing this.

I disagree with this because you have to consider what this game has in mind for a target audience. So no, there needs to be better duty finder gating, if what you claimed was the true case, there be no ilevel gating at all. So you can't make a half flawed system? But again I think this has more to do with cultural differences, as I am sure the dev team did not expect people to act in this manner.

[Magic-Mal]

I just wanted to chime in and talk about the strategy of "Making stuff gradually harder to make the players better" and I say I agree completely. I want to use Monster Hunter: World as an example.

Early on in MH:W's life everyone was talking about how easy the game was and how nothing ever took any effort. Everything dies within 5mins they say. But one thing MH:W did correctly was content scaling. Everything is tuned very well to be gradually more difficult. You go from:

Weak low rank monsters -> medium low rank monsters -> strong low rank monsters -> weak high rank monsters -> medium high rank monsters -> strong high rank monsters -> elder dragons -> Threat Lv1 tempered monsters -> Threat Lv2 tempered monsters -> Threat Lv3 tempered elder dragons -> to finally the Arch-Tempered elder dragons(and Behemoth).

Each major piece of the game where it gets more difficult after has a "gatekeeper" quest you have to beat before you can dip into the next level stuff. And it works. Not only do people who once complained it was too easy enjoy the top-level content but all the people unaccustomed to the content level get good enough to beat the strongest monsters. Yes you see tons of threads saying "This is brutal..." "So-so is kicking my a**!" "That's it.. I'm done.." but they always come back with a new spirit and make an update saying "I FINALLY GOT MY KILL". And this happens every new monster because every new monster is harder or on par with the last.

You take a game like MH:W where likely 70% of the players are completely new to the franchise and they're still able to clear the hard stuff. That's because they are always getting pushed because the game gets consistently harder as it goes on. Unlike FFXIV, which has actually gotten easier as it goes on despite level going up. It's completely backwards progression which makes no sense at all.

[Magic-Mal]

I saw it, it simply does not address my point:

I do NOT CARE if new gear does not have "all classes" on it, again not my point in saying SB did not fix the issue. The issue is you can bring that "All gear" EVEN IN CURRENT CONTENT IF you meet the ilevel average. So nope, SB did not fix anything.

Okay so you are arguing something completely different from what anyone was even talking about from the very beginning. You're arguing your own thing. Don't get mad at me for not understanding what you're trying to say. Sigma's post which was the start of this, was about wearing gear incompatible with the wearer's class at early levels. Not people going into SB stuff at ilvl49 and it not being fixed because of what the JP do.

This isn't about materia though. Low level tanks can equip those low level gemstone accessories because they're for "All Classes".

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...m/2c7ec61c874/ This is a problem in leveling roulette.

And absolutely no one said your issue with the game wasn't an issue. And I in fact, kept telling you I agreed with you. Repeatedly.

If they are only making changes (or not) because of what the JP do and not ALL the western players of the game as well, especially considering NA is half the players, and then you add EU, it's a massive oversight. By definition

o·ver·sight
ˈōvərˌsīt/Submit
noun
1.
an unintentional failure to notice or do something.

[Hamada]

Okay so you are arguing something completely different from what anyone was even talking about from the very beginning. You're arguing your own thing. Don't get mad at me for not understanding what you're trying to say. Sigma's post which was the start of this, was about wearing gear incompatible with the wearer's class at early levels. Not people going into SB stuff at ilvl49 and it not being fixed because of what the JP do.


And absolutely no one said your issue with the game wasn't an issue. And I in fact, kept telling you I agreed with you. Repeatedly.

If they are only making changes (or not) because of what the JP do and not ALL the western players of the game as well, especially considering NA is half the players, and then you add EU, it's a massive oversight. By definition

o·ver·sight
ˈōvərˌsīt/Submit
noun
1.
an unintentional failure to notice or do something.

This has been a problem with the NA player base since ARR. You claimed SB fixed it, I was trying to explain why SB did not fix anything in this regard. Also to me, you where trying to imply SE did this SB change to address duty finder cheesing, and I was trying to explain why that change had nothing to do with it. This is very important to understand because it shows the NA player base issue did not impact that change. It does not matter what started what, you said SB fixed something, and I was explaining why SB did not fix anything. it is not an oversight, they are simply ignoring NA player base problems. As far as I know this has been bought up countless times. At this point, I disagree ignoring NA playerbase problems as "unintentional" thus this situation does not fit the word of "oversight"

[Magic-Mal]

This has been a problem with the NA player base since ARR. You claimed SB fixed it, I was trying to explain why SB did not fix anything in this regard.

No I didn't. I did not say SB fixed the issue you have. I said SB fixed the issue with jewelry being for all classes but SB jewelry only. I don't know how clear I have to be. I was never talking about your issue with the gearing because we were apparently never on the same page.

Also to me, you where trying to imply SE did this SB change to address duty finder cheesing, and I was trying to explain why that change had nothing to do with it.

Point to wear I said anything about SE making the change to stop Duty Finder cheesing. I was definitely referring to the issue being players putting on gear incompatible with their job. And I definitely never even had any input as to why they changed it.

This is very important to understand because it shows the NA player base issue did not impact that change. It does not matter what started what, you said SB fixed something, and I was explaining why SB did not fix anything.

What proof do you have that NA had nothing to do with it? What proof do you have that any particular community had something to do with it?

Yes it does matter what post started this because that's what the topic was about?

it is not an oversight, they are simply ignoring NA player base problems. As far as I know this has been bought up countless times. At this point, I disagree ignoring NA playerbase problems as "unintentional" thus this situation does not fit the word of "oversight"

Again, no proof it has anything to do with any playerbase. If they made changes without thinking of NA, then it doesn't have to be because they ignored NA and more likely them making an oversight in planning. Remember the change to 24-man loot?

[Sigma-Astra]

hard mode. Hard mode has her do the fans + ahk morn mechanic. You wouldn't believe how that murders people. Part of it is netcode, lunacy on the move will not always register everyone. Even if im in position, i can get hit for 26k on initial hit because im aparently a few steps behind some of the people. Part of it is one healer out of position gets hit for 100k, and ouch.

Hard Mode? There is no HARD MODE. There's NORMAL and EX. Pick one.

If you're complaining about Normal mode, than just stop talking right then and there.

[ko_]

I have to sides to making things harder, on one hand I do agree. Make things a tiny bit harder so everyone can hopefully get better faster. BUT it'll never happen the way some people think it will cause people are generally lazy. I'm going to use Rath as an example. And this is just from my limited 2 month experience doing him. NO ONE I met or saw did it the -normal- way. You know, ONE tank 2 dps and 1 healer? Fonk that. we want all tank parties. why? Cause it is too hard for most of this player base to do the normal way. OR - just wait til your ilvl is above it.- That is the general mindset for alot of people for hard content. Not all and not everyone but it gets said. So while I do agree that making the game slightly.. ONLY slightly harder would help. Until people as a whole stop trying to cheese everything and actually play how it was intended instead of finding cheese mechs or breaking things cause mechs are hard. Then nothing will ever change. But thats just from my limited experience from my 3 years of playing.

[KaivaC]

I disagree with this because you have to consider what this game has in mind for a target audience. So no, there needs to be better duty finder gating, if what you claimed was the true case, there be no ilevel gating at all. So you can't make a half flawed system? But again I think this has more to do with cultural differences, as I am sure the dev team did not expect people to act in this manner.

When it comes to the story dungeons in Stormblood at a minimum, I do lean more towards player fault over gear for those players who have gone through HW. Of course, folks won't know unless they ask if the player jump boosted or not, but generally, I think that it is definitely more of the player who is at fault when they've gone through the HW expansion, and still do this. I don't know what the story boost gives you, only what job boosters provide. But we may just have to agree to disagree on this point.

[HyoMinPark]

I tanked an Ifrit Hard tonight where both healers died. I actually do trial as my relaxing thing, sometimes 10 times or more a night. Only takes ten minutes a pop or so usually. Yeah, people wipe on the chrysalis, tanks don't know to stand in circles, dps stand in circles instead. healers do, etc. Things like on Ravana hard, people don't know you can dodge the second and third hits of his little slashing attack, or that prelude means away and slaughter behind. Shin has people repeatedly wipe on the first tidal wave.

Yeah, people struggle.

Again, that is not because the content is inherently difficult, but because people have been conditioned to literally do the bare minimum for content. So whenever something comes up that requires more, they’re going to flounder and fail. Because nothing else thus far had demanded more from them than that. That’s not an issue with content difficulty; that’s an issue with player skill. Everything you have posted here are examples of player skill level being low—it’s hard to develop a high skill level when 90% of the game doesn’t require it, and that’s a big problem.

You'd filter out a lot more players before they reached endgame. People would quit, and this game already has churn issues. Maybe those that remain would be a little better, but savage would still be unappealing and you'd still complain about people in roulettes and pugs.

This game has issues with new player retention because of the boring ARR MSQ that takes until Garuda to finally rev up, and the Filter Fetch Quest Central that is 2.x; people aren’t quitting because they hit Garuda story mode and find her “too hard”. I also wouldn’t be surprised if the boredom came from early level content being so entirely unengaging that people have even less reason to continue on despite comments of how amazing Heavensward and beyond is, and how the MSQ becomes more tolerable after 2.x.

You bring up Savage, but you’ve never considered this: people who have gone through the story with barely needing to put forth two ilms of effort also venture into Savage (and Extremes) expecting it to “not be that hard”, and then they are floored when Phantom Train nopes them into oblivion. Then they cry about how inaccessible the content is, and it gets nerfed—see the deterioration from Midas to Creator to Deltascape/Sigmascape. This should not be the case; people should learn to put forth more than one brain cell in content, and the game should require more than one brain cell. FFXIV is literally “Baby’s First MMO”.

As for “Savage will still be unappealing” Savage participation is still higher than you might think, and it has grown as the tiers have passed: according to the minionguide.com page for Air Force (V8S mount), 21.15% of players own this mount across the regions. That’s a lot more than the 1% or 5% I see you frequently quote. And no, it’s unlikely that 50% of those are player alts.

And of course I’m going to complain when people waste my time not bothering to press their skills, or perform mechanics that they know and have seen, or expect other players to just carry them to victory. It’s not my job to carry them through content; they need to put forth the effort required instead of being lazy. The only players I tolerate mistakes from are ones who say they are new to the content and sprouts that are learning. But veterans? They should know this by now; there is no excuse not to.


As an aside addressing the Vault, yes, I do think that it was an excellent dungeon in terms of difficulty (sadly, it fell victim to The Nerfs, and is now a shadow of its former self). I didn’t do it at 3.0 launch, but I did complete it sometime in 3.1. As a new, undergeared BRD still trying to figure out bowmage, I did not find it so hard that I needed to cry about the difficulty. I actually found it really fun in the hecticness of the boss fights (all those mechanics were fairly new to me still), and it has been a favorite since.

It was the first full dungeon that required effort from the players involved (The Aery did as well with regards to some parts, but the Vault was still on a whole other level). It wasn’t a dungeon where you could press 1-1-1 and win. And I still think there should be more instances of that.