We Really Need To Talk About The State And Path Of FFXIV

[Reynhart]

That was the original premise of the original conversation between the OP and myself.

The original premise was about players having more varied gear and having an incentive to experiment. And since different players have different taste, they could use gear more inclined to their personality. For example, when I tank, I'd rather play safe than aggressively so I wish we could have a meaningful tenacity build. Sure, I'd probably do less damage than a full Det set, but trade-off in mitigation should be noticeable.

I don't think it being "required" or not for completing any content is what people are arguing, but for savage and ultimate it should be expected that people would meld the best way they can.

Again, Savage and Ultimate are a small fraction of the content, but they're still the reason why every stats is just "doing more damage", which makes itemization boring. It's so uninspired that we have two stats whose concept are "Randomly procing a hit that does increased damage", or even a "speed" stat that doesn't affect auto-attack actual speed.

In fact, this game could use only 5 stats for every character and nothing would change for the gameplay...

[Sigma-Astra]

In fact, this game could use only 5 stats for every character and nothing would change for the gameplay...

Are we playing the same game...?

[Reynhart]

Are we playing the same game...?

Yes, we are, the game where STR, DEX, INT and MND has exactly the same effect, so you could rename it Power and it would be a single stat, since items are already locked by jobs.
The game where no job needs to focus on both Skillspeed and Spellspeed, so you can rename it Speed, since items are already locked by jobs.
The game where VIT and PIE are only useful for determining HP and MP, so you can already use HP and MP as stats.
The game where DH and Crit are the same concept, so Crit would be enough, for the stat that randomly increases the damage and is used for some procs.
And you could remove Det, since it's nothing more than a substat of Power.

And, apparently, no one gives a damn on Tenacity, which effect is also covered by Defense/MDefense on gear and Power anyway...

And we would all play our jobs exactly the same as we are now.

[KaivaC]

Yes, we are, the game where STR, DEX, INT and MND has exactly the same effect, so you could rename it Potency and it would be a single stat, since items are already locked by jobs.
The game where no job needs to focus on both Skillspeed and Spellspeed, so you can rename it Speed, since items are already locked by jobs.
The game where VIT and PIE are only useful for determining HP and MP, so you can already use HP and MP as stats.
The game where DH and Crit are the same concept, so Crit would be enough, for the stat that randomly increases the damage and is used for some procs.
And you could remove Det, since it's basically a substat of Potency.

And, apparently, no one gives a damn on Tenacity, which effect is also covered by Defense/MDefense on gear and Potency anyway...

And we would all play our jobs exactly the same as we are now.

Gonna need clarification from the other raiders here on the other stats and to make sure I'm correct, but based on personal experience, that would require a reworking on main stats and how they are applied to combat, wouldn't they? On the tanking side of things, I know that Crit doesn't help Paladins as much as Direct Hit does. Whereas Warriors rely heavily on those sweet crits during their IR burst - in fact, it's why the preferred stats are Crit for WAR and DH for PLDs, because that is what is preferable to those jobs when it comes down to optimization.

Again, with your suggestion, it would require a reworking of stats and how damage is probably applied, and that might be far more work than the developers would find necessary, nor would it even be easy to do, considering that all the jobs have specific builds to pull the most use out of them.

[Reynhart]

Gonna need clarification from the other raiders here on the other stats and to make sure I'm correct, but based on personal experience, that would require a reworking on main stats and how they are applied to combat, wouldn't they?

No. What is applied in combat is Attack, Magic Attack and Healing. It's just that, depending on the job, your Attack is tied to a different stat. If you look at PLD, even Clemency and Holy Spirit are tied to Attack instead of the other two, and for healers, both their healing spells and damaging spells scales on MND, i.e, healing.

[KaivaC]

No. What is applied in combat is Attack, Magic Attack and Healing. It's just that, depending on the job, your Attack is tied to a different stat. If you look at PLD, even Clemency and Holy Spirit are tied to Attack instead of the other two, and for healers, both their healing spells and damaging spells scales on MND, i.e, healing.

Pardon me, but I could recall that the damage you do to enemies have four different variants. If I'm remembering correctly, that is normal, direct hit, critical, and direct critical, all of which are affected by the stats you have and a healthy dose of RNG. In fact, I remember that Crit melds directly affect BOTH the rate of crits as well as crit hit damage. It's more than just the three you are saying. While there may be some games out there in which you can just use those three as the only applicable combat attributes, FFXIV is not that kind of game. What you are suggesting would, at a minimum based on the experience I've personally had, require a rework of WARs, who rely very heavily on not only how strong their crits are in their IR window, but also the rate of crits.

Not to mention how it would affect SCHs when it comes to getting that crit on their shields when it is very much needed during high damage. I couldn't speak on the other jobs as I haven't tried them out, but I don't think simplifying matters as you've suggested would be nearly as good as you are saying they will be.

[Reynhart]

Pardon me, but I could recall that the damage you do to enemies have four different variants. If I'm remembering correctly, that is normal, direct hit, critical, and direct critical, all of which are affected by the stats you have and a healthy dose of RNG.

Yes, you have, since we have Crit and DH. But, both those stats use the same concept. There's no point in having two stats that work the same way. You could adjust their value to have just one stat called Crit. AFAIK, FFXIV is the only game to have two kinds of "Crits". Like I said in some other post, if one of those stats worked like the Dragon Quest crits, then it could be interesting depending on the foe you're facing.

[Sigma-Astra]

Yes, we are, the game where STR, DEX, INT and MND has exactly the same effect, so you could rename it Power and it would be a single stat, since items are already locked by jobs.
The game where no job needs to focus on both Skillspeed and Spellspeed, so you can rename it Speed, since items are already locked by jobs.
The game where VIT and PIE are only useful for determining HP and MP, so you can already use HP and MP as stats.
The game where DH and Crit are the same concept, so Crit would be enough, for the stat that randomly increases the damage and is used for some procs.
And you could remove Det, since it's nothing more than a substat of Power.

And, apparently, no one gives a damn on Tenacity, which effect is also covered by Defense/MDefense on gear and Power anyway...

And we would all play our jobs exactly the same as we are now.

Yea sure, because single player basic RPG game stat aspects are the way to go about things here. It's not hard to pay attention to what your main and sub stats are, but sure, let's make the game 20x more simple and stupid than it was before because one person doesn't like it.

/sarcasm

Crit and DH may be the same concept, but they don't even function in the same way to begin with as certain jobs require one over the other entirely. Each one functions on a different probability rate of succeeding based off of how high your own stats are and since....every job will have a different number inflation, that's not even counting with what people meld, the numbers are not going to be the same for everyone.

I don't need my spellspeed to affect my overall speed of everything that I do if you're wanting to combine both skill and spell into just speed, that's stupid. If I'm wacking things with my stick faster instead of casting faster then I'm not being a very good mage.

I'm not even sure why we need this asinine basic stat system you're suggesting. Stats in XIV are not hard, it's not rocket science.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

The original premise was about players having more varied gear and having an incentive to experiment. And since different players have different taste, they could use gear more inclined to their personality. For example, when I tank, I'd rather play safe than aggressively so I wish we could have a meaningful tenacity build. Sure, I'd probably do less damage than a full Det set, but trade-off in mitigation should be noticeable.

Again, Savage and Ultimate are a small fraction of the content, but they're still the reason why every stats is just "doing more damage", which makes itemization boring. It's so uninspired that we have two stats whose concept are "Randomly procing a hit that does increased damage", or even a "speed" stat that doesn't affect auto-attack actual speed.

In fact, this game could use only 5 stats for every character and nothing would change for the gameplay...

Dungeons are so safe that even with gear optimized for DPS, you'll give no trouble to your healers if you use properly your cooldowns. And if you don't, gear isn't supposed to be a cushion for them.

[Miste]

Again, Savage and Ultimate are a small fraction of the content, but they're still the reason why every stats is just "doing more damage", which makes itemization boring. It's so uninspired that we have two stats whose concept are "Randomly procing a hit that does increased damage", or even a "speed" stat that doesn't affect auto-attack actual speed.

So, I guess you didn't read my reply. I already told you that that was not the point people were arguing and you are just repeating it again?

Why are you arguing with me about the stats being boring or uninspired? None of my post talks about this, so you are picking the wrong person to try to argue with about it. I mean to be fair 9/15 (60%) of the jobs in the game right now are DPS jobs, so of course the main goal is "doing more damage."

I also never said I was against SE adding new stats or new variables to gear. That is a totally separate topic than what I replied to you initially about.

There is a difference between suggesting new stats to make things more interesting and the idea of simply working within the current system since that is what we are playing right now.