We Really Need To Talk About The State And Path Of FFXIV

[Reynhart]

But there is a mathematical difference. That's what you're failing to realize. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

Yes, there is, it's just that so few situations requires it that it's hardly relevant for the vast majority of the playerbase. Playerbase that gets denied any kind of personal builds for that very reason.

The "gimping yourself" comment was made by you well after the comment you quoted from me

Hmmm, no...

so gimping yourself is ok because the game is not hard? sounds legit.

along with how people supposedly don't care about a 5% damage loss (DRG-less BRDs and MCHs would like a word with you about that).

Again, the 5% loss was a situation of not avoiding more han a 1000 Direct Hit worth of melding. So, like I said...

really far from the "tank pentameld acc or gtfo".

[HyoMinPark]

Yes, there is, it's just that so few situations requires it that it's hardly relevant for the vast majority of the playerbase. Playerbase that gets denied any kind of personal builds for that very reason.

Except, again, we were speaking in a raiding context, the content that benefits from this sort of optimization (Savage and Ultimate).

The original comment about ridiculous stat builds was made regarding a 3,000 Skill Speed MCH showing up in Kefka (a raid)—3,000 skill speed on a job like MCH is purposely gimping yourself due to
—1. Not melding more valuable substats (Direct hit/crit/determination), and
—2. The sheer amount of GCD clipping you would have at 3,000 skill speed and how much it would hurt your rotation, and, as a result, your damage.

That was the original premise of the original conversation between the OP and myself. Someone else then said that “stats don’t matter” in response to a snippet of that post, which I refuted with examples of crafted tank accessories being mathematically superior than the i370 Tomestone or Savage accessories, and jobs literally sacrificing main stat for substats (e.g., BRD). If stats “don’t matter”, why is there a mathematical significance between the i350 pentamelded accessories and the i370 tomestone/Savage accessories for tanks? Why do tanks who care about damage take the i350 over the i370 if this “didn’t matter”?

Again, I am talking about a raiding context. Not Expert Roulette. The mathematical significance still exists despite 90% of the content in this game “not needing” it or 90% of the playerbase “not caring” about it, which I have said to you numerous times. Ignoring that comment doesn’t make it go away. If only this game actually did require more optimization in “more casual” content; I would love that.


And regardless if your comment was made with regards to “losing 5% because they didn’t meld X substat”, there are people out there who would care about losing ~5% of damage. Again, ask any BRD or MCH that cares about their damage why they always want a DRG; that’s exactly the amount of damage they lose (BRD a bit more because of Litany and crit buffs) when they don’t have one, and that’s why BRDs and MCHs have started advocating for either the removal of piercing resistance down, or for them to just have the ability to apply it themselves.

I personally think more people should care; maybe the amount of competence in this playerbase would actually increase if that were the case. As it stands now, I’m more surprised to have a decent group that AOEs in Expert Roulette or who don’t take 12~13 minutes to clear V7N compared to the alternative: no AOE and 12~13 minute long V7Ns.

[Miste]

Yes, there is, it's just that so few situations requires it that it's hardly relevant for the vast majority of the playerbase.

I don't think it being "required" or not for completing any content is what people are arguing, but for savage and ultimate it should be expected that people would meld the best way they can.

I think it is mostly the idea of "if your job would do better by melding proper stats, then....why wouldn't you?" and also that your contribution matters for other players you play with, small amount or not.

If you really want to do bad melds for your job for personal reasons then no one can stop you, but part of the point is also not to try to argue that your choice is a good one when the game design doesn't support that logic. Also if you do such bad melds then you might get some resistance if you tried to do that in savage or ultimate.

At least that is what it seems like to me.

[Reynhart]

That was the original premise of the original conversation between the OP and myself.

The original premise was about players having more varied gear and having an incentive to experiment. And since different players have different taste, they could use gear more inclined to their personality. For example, when I tank, I'd rather play safe than aggressively so I wish we could have a meaningful tenacity build. Sure, I'd probably do less damage than a full Det set, but trade-off in mitigation should be noticeable.

I don't think it being "required" or not for completing any content is what people are arguing, but for savage and ultimate it should be expected that people would meld the best way they can.

Again, Savage and Ultimate are a small fraction of the content, but they're still the reason why every stats is just "doing more damage", which makes itemization boring. It's so uninspired that we have two stats whose concept are "Randomly procing a hit that does increased damage", or even a "speed" stat that doesn't affect auto-attack actual speed.

In fact, this game could use only 5 stats for every character and nothing would change for the gameplay...

[Sigma-Astra]

In fact, this game could use only 5 stats for every character and nothing would change for the gameplay...

Are we playing the same game...?

[Reynhart]

Are we playing the same game...?

Yes, we are, the game where STR, DEX, INT and MND has exactly the same effect, so you could rename it Power and it would be a single stat, since items are already locked by jobs.
The game where no job needs to focus on both Skillspeed and Spellspeed, so you can rename it Speed, since items are already locked by jobs.
The game where VIT and PIE are only useful for determining HP and MP, so you can already use HP and MP as stats.
The game where DH and Crit are the same concept, so Crit would be enough, for the stat that randomly increases the damage and is used for some procs.
And you could remove Det, since it's nothing more than a substat of Power.

And, apparently, no one gives a damn on Tenacity, which effect is also covered by Defense/MDefense on gear and Power anyway...

And we would all play our jobs exactly the same as we are now.

[KaivaC]

Yes, we are, the game where STR, DEX, INT and MND has exactly the same effect, so you could rename it Potency and it would be a single stat, since items are already locked by jobs.
The game where no job needs to focus on both Skillspeed and Spellspeed, so you can rename it Speed, since items are already locked by jobs.
The game where VIT and PIE are only useful for determining HP and MP, so you can already use HP and MP as stats.
The game where DH and Crit are the same concept, so Crit would be enough, for the stat that randomly increases the damage and is used for some procs.
And you could remove Det, since it's basically a substat of Potency.

And, apparently, no one gives a damn on Tenacity, which effect is also covered by Defense/MDefense on gear and Potency anyway...

And we would all play our jobs exactly the same as we are now.

Gonna need clarification from the other raiders here on the other stats and to make sure I'm correct, but based on personal experience, that would require a reworking on main stats and how they are applied to combat, wouldn't they? On the tanking side of things, I know that Crit doesn't help Paladins as much as Direct Hit does. Whereas Warriors rely heavily on those sweet crits during their IR burst - in fact, it's why the preferred stats are Crit for WAR and DH for PLDs, because that is what is preferable to those jobs when it comes down to optimization.

Again, with your suggestion, it would require a reworking of stats and how damage is probably applied, and that might be far more work than the developers would find necessary, nor would it even be easy to do, considering that all the jobs have specific builds to pull the most use out of them.

[Reynhart]

Gonna need clarification from the other raiders here on the other stats and to make sure I'm correct, but based on personal experience, that would require a reworking on main stats and how they are applied to combat, wouldn't they?

No. What is applied in combat is Attack, Magic Attack and Healing. It's just that, depending on the job, your Attack is tied to a different stat. If you look at PLD, even Clemency and Holy Spirit are tied to Attack instead of the other two, and for healers, both their healing spells and damaging spells scales on MND, i.e, healing.

[Sigma-Astra]

Yes, we are, the game where STR, DEX, INT and MND has exactly the same effect, so you could rename it Power and it would be a single stat, since items are already locked by jobs.
The game where no job needs to focus on both Skillspeed and Spellspeed, so you can rename it Speed, since items are already locked by jobs.
The game where VIT and PIE are only useful for determining HP and MP, so you can already use HP and MP as stats.
The game where DH and Crit are the same concept, so Crit would be enough, for the stat that randomly increases the damage and is used for some procs.
And you could remove Det, since it's nothing more than a substat of Power.

And, apparently, no one gives a damn on Tenacity, which effect is also covered by Defense/MDefense on gear and Power anyway...

And we would all play our jobs exactly the same as we are now.

Yea sure, because single player basic RPG game stat aspects are the way to go about things here. It's not hard to pay attention to what your main and sub stats are, but sure, let's make the game 20x more simple and stupid than it was before because one person doesn't like it.

/sarcasm

Crit and DH may be the same concept, but they don't even function in the same way to begin with as certain jobs require one over the other entirely. Each one functions on a different probability rate of succeeding based off of how high your own stats are and since....every job will have a different number inflation, that's not even counting with what people meld, the numbers are not going to be the same for everyone.

I don't need my spellspeed to affect my overall speed of everything that I do if you're wanting to combine both skill and spell into just speed, that's stupid. If I'm wacking things with my stick faster instead of casting faster then I'm not being a very good mage.

I'm not even sure why we need this asinine basic stat system you're suggesting. Stats in XIV are not hard, it's not rocket science.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

The original premise was about players having more varied gear and having an incentive to experiment. And since different players have different taste, they could use gear more inclined to their personality. For example, when I tank, I'd rather play safe than aggressively so I wish we could have a meaningful tenacity build. Sure, I'd probably do less damage than a full Det set, but trade-off in mitigation should be noticeable.

Again, Savage and Ultimate are a small fraction of the content, but they're still the reason why every stats is just "doing more damage", which makes itemization boring. It's so uninspired that we have two stats whose concept are "Randomly procing a hit that does increased damage", or even a "speed" stat that doesn't affect auto-attack actual speed.

In fact, this game could use only 5 stats for every character and nothing would change for the gameplay...

Dungeons are so safe that even with gear optimized for DPS, you'll give no trouble to your healers if you use properly your cooldowns. And if you don't, gear isn't supposed to be a cushion for them.