We Really Need To Talk About The State And Path Of FFXIV

[Magic-Mal]

With current BiS, that’s as high as we go—because the 2 Tomestone Rings give us Skill Speed (our headpiece does, too, as well as a couple pieces), and we begrudgingly take them in high crit builds because we also gain a substantial amount of Crit. We don’t want to meld Skill Speed. That’s the point I’m trying to make here; not that you can “go higher”. You certainly can, but BRDs don’t want to go higher (it feels absolutely awful, in my opinion...).

Speculation now is that, in 4.4, Crit will become king again with regards to substats. Our skill priority probably won’t change all that much (Crit > D.Hit > Det), but we may take higher skill speed builds if we gain a substantial amount of Crit at the same time. 4.4 will tell us when we see the substats on i400 Tomestone gear versus the Savage gear (and maybe even crafted, because High Crit uses a pentamelded i350 bracelet simply because we can shove 100+ Crit into it).

But I digress; this is, again, getting into BRD optimization, which is another conversation for another time.

All of this is exactly one of the reasons why I made up that post a while back. The one about all the different paths to gear that's max ilvl, meaning gear that simply has the level and different stats not actually being the raid or Augmented Tome Gear. I also edited in to the OP.

I want to be able to get something nice from more content than just raids or dungeons. No matter what we do, in the end if we want to be i370 or i400 we will have to deal with having things we don't really want. We shouldn't have to deal with extra Skill Speed if we don't want Skill Speed. We should have way more options. FFXIV even right now has the content to reward some things. Like the Peak Crafted Gear and Primal Jewelry I mentioned. If some MCH decides they want to try and create a build with 3,000 Skill Speed and 2,500 Critical Hit, they should be able to. Who knows, maybe something hilarious will come out of it. I just hate not having more than 2 options.

EDIT: Now I can actually finish the post. The only thing I'd like to see added to the raid loot system would be something like what Dualgunner thought of some pages ago. Something that dropped from the savage raids like a Precision Lens that could be used in a crafting recipe to create pieces of raid gear.

I'd also like the book system to be incorporated into the Normal raids because my goodness, it's more difficult and takes more effort to get the normal mode gear than the savage gear. I would happily take a token/book system that you get every week to buy stuff but for NM. Because when the catch-up patch comes and the weekly limit is removed, we'd have guaranteed reward after 4 clears or 8 for chest/legs. Less headache and that would encourage me to actually do the content over a few weeks span over getting a headache grinding it all week with no gain.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

All of this is exactly one of the reasons why I made up that post a while back. The one about all the different paths to gear that's max ilvl, meaning gear that simply has the level and different stats not actually being the raid or Augmented Tome Gear. I also edited in to the OP.

I want to be able to get something nice from more content than just raids or dungeons. No matter what we do, in the end if we want to be i370 or i400 we will have to deal with having things we don't really want. We shouldn't have to deal with extra Skill Speed if we don't want Skill Speed. We should have way more options. FFXIV even right now has the content to reward some things. Like the Peak Crafted Gear and Primal Jewelry I mentioned. If some MCH decides they want to try and create a build with 3,000 Skill Speed and 2,500 Critical Hit, they should be able to. Who knows, maybe something hilarious will come out of it. I just hate not having more than 2 options.

The biggest problem is that is stats simply don't offer that much parity. A MCH with 3,000 Skill Speed isn't experimenting with some new build, they're simply inferior to their Critical Hit counterpart. Theorycrafters have done extensive testing with extreme builds like you described. There isn't any that offers a benefit. For example, a Ninja who adopts too much Skill Speed will clip their GCD constantly, resulting is less damage overall. Nothing is gained due to how linear stats are. In fact, Samurai and Black Mage are among the very few jobs who can go Crit or Skill/Spell Speed and make it work, though they need to generally favor one of those stats not make and match. Ultimately, FFXIV doesn't allow for "crazy" builds and no amount of additional i370 or i400 gear will change that. You'd just look silly wearing gear pieces that are only a hindrance to your overall damage.

[Magic-Mal]

The biggest problem is that is stats simply don't offer that much parity. A MCH with 3,000 Skill Speed isn't experimenting with some new build, they're simply inferior to their Critical Hit counterpart. Theorycrafters have done extensive testing with extreme builds like you described. There isn't any that offers a benefit. For example, a Ninja who adopts too much Skill Speed will clip their GCD constantly, resulting is less damage overall. Nothing is gained due to how linear stats are. In fact, Samurai and Black Mage are among the very few jobs who can go Crit or Skill/Spell Speed and make it work, though they need to generally favor one of those stats not make and match. Ultimately, FFXIV doesn't allow for "crazy" builds and no amount of additional i370 or i400 gear will change that. You'd just look silly wearing gear pieces that are only a hindrance to your overall damage.

Lots of people out there don't go by what theorycrafters say though. Just like lots do go by what they say. Even if something is subpar, the player should be able to make that decision especially if they aren't raiding Ultimate since I bet even a MCH with 3,000 Skill Speed can beat Kefka with a team of other players with botched gear. Players with odd stats can make their own groups. Otherwise why have options at all if the best way to go is the way to go? Just have VIT/STR/DEX/INT/MND and call it a day.

Let's use MHW for example since it has a Skill system. The theorycrafters, math whizzes, and super skilled players proved that you could go out and beat the whole game naked with low rank weapons. Why have more weapons then? But we do have more weapons

The theorycrafters proved that raw damage is always better than elemental. Why have elemental weapons then? But we do have elemental weapons.

At least the players have that choice. Some will listen to what's out there, some won't in the end. But they can still beat the hardest content.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

At least the players have that choice. Some will listen to what's out there, some won't in the end. But they can still beat the hardest content.

That isn't a choice but an illusion. You're either ignorant to superior builds or purposely being a hindrance. In a single player game, it impacts no one else. In a MMO, you're actively making it more difficult because you want to feel special. Can a Machinist with 3,000 Skill Speed beat God Kefka? Yes. But all you've accomplished is weakening your own damage to the point why bother upgrading at all? There is literally no point to obtaining i370 gear if you're going to willfully gimp yourself with silly stat builds.

Your example omits the fact most people want to become more powerful. And in a team, your expected to bring your A game. While it may be entirely possible to kill things in MHW practically naked, if you showed up like that most people are going to kick you for wasting their time. You're not experimenting with new builds, you're simply being a detriment because again, you want to feel special. Do that on your own time; with other like-minded people. Don't waste mine.

[Magic-Mal]

That isn't a choice but an illusion. You're either ignorant to superior builds or purposely being a hindrance. In a single player game, it impacts no one else. In a MMO, you're actively making it more difficult because you want to feel special. Can a Machinist with 3,000 Skill Speed beat God Kefka? Yes. But all you've accomplished is weakening your own damage to the point why bother upgrading at all? There is literally no point to obtaining i370 gear if you're going to willfully gimp yourself with silly stat builds.

I remember when I too, used to always say "illusion of choice" then FFXIV got boring. Look at PvP. It's trash right now and everyone is exactly the same. Same HP, same MP, same damage, same skills, same traits, and same flat rotation with no way to play differently from one another. They removed the cross-class system so everyone in PvE is exactly the same and the leveling experience is brutal. No more using Death Blossom on PGL to have an AoE advantage at a lower level because that's an illusion of choice. No more playing CNJ with Raging Strikes, Blood For Blood, and Internal Release doing ridiculous healer DPS because illusion of choice. No more Keen Flurry on BRD to possibly reduce incoming damage by 20% and save your life(it definitely did for me many times) because that's an illusion of choice. No gear progression or anything meaningful in armor because that's an illusion of choice. That's what happens when the "illusion" is removed. Flatness. Shallow gameplay.

I ask again, if someone not adhering to the BiS build "extra attack choices" that theorycrafters created is being suboptimal and a detriment to groups and that makes deciding to have "different" stats pointless and an illusion of choice why not just have all gear be just VIT with a STR/DEX/INT/MND stat on it? Boom no more illusion of choice. No more suboptimal players.

Your example omits the fact most people want to become more powerful. And in a team, your expected to bring your A game. While it may be entirely possible to kill things in MHW practically naked, if you showed up like that most people are going to kick you for wasting their time. You're not experimenting with new builds, you're simply being a detriment because again, you want to feel special. Do that on your own time; with other like-minded people. Don't waste mine.

I certainly don't have whatever is the supposed best and I never got kicked from any parties. If not looking up the mathematically best set up and copying it is detrimental to your team then I won't be wasting your time for sure. I would never end up in your group. But I can assure you I beat things just fine.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I remember when I too, used to always say "illusion of choice" then FFXIV got boring. Look at PvP. It's trash right now and everyone is exactly the same. Same HP, same MP, same damage, same skills, same traits, and same flat rotation with no way to play differently from one another. They removed the cross-class system so everyone in PvE is exactly the same and the leveling experience is brutal. No more using Death Blossom on PGL to have an AoE advantage at a lower level because that's an illusion of choice. No more playing CNJ with Raging Strikes, Blood For Blood, and Internal Release doing ridiculous healer DPS because illusion of choice. No more Keen Flurry on BRD to possibly reduce incoming damage by 20% and save your life(it definitely did for me many times) because that's an illusion of choice. No gear progression or anything meaningful in armor because that's an illusion of choice. That's what happens when the "illusion" is removed. Flatness. Shallow gameplay.

I ask again, if someone not adhering to the BiS build "extra attack choices" that theorycrafters created is being suboptimal and a detriment to groups and that makes deciding to have "different" stats pointless and an illusion of choice why not just have all gear be just VIT with a STR/DEX/INT/MND stat on it? Boom no more illusion of choice. No more suboptimal players.

Except every job doesn't play the same in PvP. It's trash now because they pruned far too many skills, removed all CC aspect and left it an imbalanced mess. Likewise, while the end result may be the same jobs play different in PvE. The old cross-class system didn't work any better than what we have now. You took the skills that best suited your job or you looked foolish. A Monk too lazy to level Dragoon for Blood for Blood wasn't trying out some special new build, they were simply lazy. Just like healers who refuse to slot Esuna now are frequently yelled at when content demands that skill and they don't have access to it. None of your examples refute the fact it's all an illusion of choice. That doesn't mean we should remove all choice entirely, but to willfully gimp yourself because you want to try something new is just you screaming "I want to be special!!!!!" If you have a group of like-minded people, go nuts. But if you're grouping with randoms, it's just inconsiderate.

A perfect example of this is if I queue into Ridorana right now on Lancer. Sure, I'll clear just fine, and probably out-dps some people since I know the job equivalent, but my having fun is putting more work on the group.

Now you're just being willfully obtuse. Secondary stats do allow for some customization. In fact, most jobs have at least two BiS sets, though several have upwards of 4-5. Your example of just been silly extremes because again, you want to be special.

I certainly don't have whatever is the supposed best and I never got kicked from any parties. If not looking up the mathematically best set up and copying it is detrimental to your team then I won't be wasting your time for sure. I would never end up in your group. But I can assure you I beat things just fine.

There is a stark difference between not having access to better gear and purposely choosing to make sub-optimal decisions because you think it's fun.

[Reynhart]

There is a stark difference between not having access to better gear and purposely choosing to make sub-optimal decisions because you think it's fun.

It also depend on how "sub-optimal" it is. If you can have more fun by only losing a fragment of your efficiency, no one will really care about that. Besides, you could also have builds more inclined toward soloing, with more emphasis on self-preservation, that would be gimped in group content, but that could still be interesting.

And finally, since most people probably level several jobs, it's not that surreal to think that they would probably chose the optimal setup for their main job, while retaining more freedom when doing less demanding content with their alts.

[Magic-Mal]

Except every job doesn't play the same in PvP. It's trash now because they pruned far too many skills, removed all CC aspect and left it an imbalanced mess. Likewise, while the end result may be the same jobs play different in PvE. The old cross-class system didn't work any better than what we have now. You took the skills that best suited your job or you looked foolish. A Monk too lazy to level Dragoon for Blood for Blood wasn't trying out some special new build, they were simply lazy. Just like healers who refuse to slot Esuna now are frequently yelled at when content demands that skill and they don't have access to it.

I didn't say all jobs are the same as other jobs in PvP. Maybe I said it the wrong way. All BRDs are the same. All MNKs are the same. Everyone follows a very restricted rotation. Even against high level PvPers you know exactly what every monk will do because they have nothing else they CAN do. It was all deleted. Did you forget all those skills and CC actually made a difference? You can't differentiate yourself from others now. But that seems to be the problem you have. Wanting to be different = wanting to be special = not needed because it's not the best math-wise

You glossed over everything I said about the early leveling experience which is totally bad right now. Yes there were things like Raging Strikes, Blood For Blood and Internal Release that people took because they were pretty much needed but there were other skills like Foresight, Keen Flurry, Bloodbath, Feint, Mercy Stroke, Flash etc, that actually affected the gameplay. Unlike the 60% of every role ability each class has that are completely useless in any content which used to just be regular attacks with an effect before anyway. Why they removed all the abilities just to put them back in but with no damage attached and deleting the cross class system is BEYOND ME.

As a BRD duoing PotD, Feint was a staple for me because the Slow effect completely gimped casting enemies making them easier to defeat. I got rid of Invigorate for Second Wind and another skill for Bloodbath. Can I do that now? Nope. They took my choice away. Remember when SMN and SCH had Blizzard II and SCH had Aero? Bye bye choices.

Now you're just being willfully obtuse. Secondary stats do allow for some customization. In fact, most jobs have at least two BiS sets, though several have upwards of 4-5. Your example of just been silly extremes because again, you want to be special.

So basically... the illusion of choice because there's always one that's mathed out to be the best. It's an illusion of choice because any other armor set up is "wrong" and those few BiS armor sets are the right ones. Making it pointless to wear anything other than those certain sets, therefore making it not a choice.

Also I'm not trying to be special. Do you see me putting in Skill Speed into my MCHs and DRGs? No. I do tend to follow what makes me the strongest. However if I have an idea to make something and it doesn't harm my do to broken extents I, and anyone else should be able to do so. Maybe I should push my BRD Skill Speed to 2.29 GCD. Just so you can be upset that I exist even though you don't see or interact with me.

There is a stark difference between not having access to better gear and purposely choosing to make sub-optimal decisions because you think it's fun.

Is anyone hurting your feelings doing so? Is a person with a stupid build clearing Kefka in Mateus hurt your feelings over there in Cactuar in what I assume to be your static?

None of your examples refute the fact it's all an illusion of choice. That doesn't mean we should remove all choice entirely, but to willfully gimp yourself because you want to try something new is just you screaming "I want to be special!!!!!" If you have a group of like-minded people, go nuts. But if you're grouping with randoms, it's just inconsiderate.

1. Implying randoms will 100% always be pure BiS and peak performance and will care or even notice a person's stats. Lol. If a Lancer is in Ridorana doing high DPS and even outdpsing others, I guarantee you you're not the problem and no one will kick you. At most people will be laughing at the fact a Lancer is there.

2. You seem so against this "illusion of choice", okay. What's your idea of an online game that's done correctly that doesn't have a theorycrafted solution to render everything else subpar and creating an illusion of choice? Name one online game.

[HyoMinPark]

All of this is exactly one of the reasons why I made up that post a while back. The one about all the different paths to gear that's max ilvl, meaning gear that simply has the level and different stats not actually being the raid or Augmented Tome Gear. I also edited in to the OP.

What you are failing to realize here is that maximum item level does not necessarily mean the best (the i370 Aiming body exists, after all). Did you miss where I said BRD has 2 builds currently that sacrifice i370 pieces for an i350 piece and an i360 piece? And they aren’t the only job that has done that this tier. As it stands, it’s not just Tomestones or Savage as your only options, and “highest item level” does not always mean “the best”.

I’m not opposed to adding more options, but they may not necessarily be “the best”—considering that gear stat configurations are chosen by algorithms that assign substats on each piece of gear based on what stat combination hasn’t been chosen yet, they could end up “the best”, “the second best”, “bearable”, or “absolute trash”. Getting “the best” may still rely on either raiding for the piece, or settling for something “second best”; I hope you also realize that.

I want to be able to get something nice from more content than just raids or dungeons. No matter what we do, in the end if we want to be i370 or i400 we will have to deal with having things we don't really want. We shouldn't have to deal with extra Skill Speed if we don't want Skill Speed. We should have way more options. FFXIV even right now has the content to reward some things. Like the Peak Crafted Gear and Primal Jewelry I mentioned.

I’ll use BRD as an example again—there already are options for the BRDs that don’t want the 983 Skill Speed that comes with the High Crit build: the High DEX build, which has less skill speed, for example. I’ve even seen some BRDs talk about taking the i350 crafted belt to reduce the Skill Speed (BiS sets favor the Augmented Tomestone belt), and to allow for more Crit melding, as that’s their preference. And these are orange-percentile BRDs; they’re good players. There may be slight damage variances, or there may not; I didn’t follow up to see if that was tested.
Damage variance on BRD is already a significant thing even with BiS because of RNG, to be fair.

There are 3 builds for MCH in Sigmascape all with varying degrees of GCDs so that they can have a GCD (which is dependent on Skill Speed) that gives them the least amount of clipping with their latency, since MCH is so heavily affected by ping with regards to their Wildfires.

These options exist; the various gearsets that currently exist all boil down to preference as they all have similar damage outputs (i.e., High Crit and High DEX will net you roughly the same amount of gain, hence why they’re both viable builds despite one sacrificing main stat in favor of a substat—even though Crit basically counts as a main stat for BRD at this point because of how much our job revolves around it).

If some MCH decides they want to try and create a build with 3,000 Skill Speed and 2,500 Critical Hit, they should be able to. Who knows, maybe something hilarious will come out of it.

At that point, all other MCHs are looking at that MCH and scratching their heads. Such a build is not only impossible within the confines of this game currently, but also a detriment to that MCH’s performance. Skill Speed and a MCH’s core rotation do not allow for such “crazy builds” without severely impacting the MCH’s damage performance (e.g., GCD clipping). Skill Speed and Spell Speed are not stats that can allow for such “crazy builds” because of the way they function within this game—not without severely impacting the player who chooses to go down that road, and not in a good way.

I just hate not having more than 2 options.

Your ire seems to stem from the fact that these options (there are more than 2 for BiS for multiple jobs; I’ve said that multiple times) require raid gear and aren’t completely reliant on gear you can get outside of raids. But, as I said above, even if you did add in Primal Accessories or some Super Augmented crafted gear, they still may or may not be “the best” for your job; “the best” may still be locked behind raids.

If you only cared about item level, this wouldn’t be an issue. But you clearly do care about more than just that. That’s kind of why your MCH example confuses me—you obviously care to some extent about substats and how they affect a job (otherwise, I don’t think we would be having this conversation), so why start suggesting that it should be possible to do something so completely suboptimal?

Lots of people out there don't go by what theorycrafters say though. Just like lots do go by what they say. Even if something is subpar, the player should be able to make that decision especially if they aren't raiding Ultimate since I bet even a MCH with 3,000 Skill Speed can beat Kefka with a team of other players with botched gear. Players with odd stats can make their own groups. Otherwise why have options at all if the best way to go is the way to go? Just have VIT/STR/DEX/INT/MND and call it a day.

I question why a player would willingly pick something subpar, if they are aware that it’s subpar. I can at least understand if they are unaware of how subpar something is, but if they already know? Why willingly choose it?

There are plenty of options for several jobs this tier with regards to BiS—BRD has 5 different BiS that they can choose from, each with varying amounts of DEX and Crit, the two stats that are most important to them. MCH has 3. Healers have tons depending on their preferences (High Piety? Low Piety? Determination build? Crit build?).

The options are there—they just aren’t off the wall like you’re suggesting here, and yes, they rely on raid gear. But that’s the way the algorithm fell. If you don’t think they’re there, I would suggest you doing some research; all jobs currently have multiple options for BiS, and there are decent options for non-BiS or pseudo-BiS if you look;I just doubt you’d want them because they aren’t “the best”. It’s not cut and dry. The only difference between those and what you’re suggesting is that none of them are “crazy builds” that also make the jobs absolutely horrible to play (because 3,000 Skill Speed on a MCH would make it horrible to play), and none rely exclusively on just Savage gear or just Tomestone gear.

It doesn’t matter if the 3,000 Skill Speed MCH can clear God Kefka if he’s hindering a party while doing so. Clearing isn’t all that matters when you’re playing with other people, and I get tired of hearing the “Well, we cleared!” argument after a run where two people carried six. If he wants to play with others who love botching their gear, then fine; but if he tries to join parties or statics with players who care about things like optimization because “we’re still going to clear, chill”, then no. That’s not okay.

The theorycrafters proved that raw damage is always better than elemental. Why have elemental weapons then? But we do have elemental weapons.

If you’re referring to the ARR elemental weapons (e.g., the conjurer and thaumaturge weapons that you can craft that all have elemental resistances on them) and not the ones from Pagos, those are there strictly because they’re a remnant from 1.0. When the developers ported 1.0 over to ARR, they didn’t delete any of the existing items because they didn’t want to cause issues for players that returned that may have had those items equipped or in their inventories—e.g., say a player had equipped one of those weapons on their conjurer: they didn’t want the player to return and suddenly not have a weapon, so they left them in the game. Elemental resistance had a bit of importance in 1.0, but that was removed with ARR, making any gains null and void. If you’ve noticed, elemental weapons stopped being a thing after the base 2.0 game; you don’t see them anywhere else.

If you’re referring to the Pagos weapons, they’re supposed to be there to serve as a base for the next step of the mess the Stormblood Relic Questline is. But they aren’t elementally aspected last I checked, because elemental resistance has no gains in this iteration of the game. After all, 4.0 removed all elemental materia as drops; any left over are from people who were simply carrying them beforehand.

At least the players have that choice. Some will listen to what's out there, some won't in the end. But they can still beat the hardest content.

Players already have choices. You not doing your research to see that isn’t the fault of the raiders, the developers, or anyone else.