The Road to 5.0

[ObsidianFire]

I think where most people have problems with your view is in how long ago the Garleans were forced north compared to when they expanded their boarders. It would be a lot easier to accept your explanation of why the Garleans expanded if it happened only a century or two after Garlemald was founded. But it doesn't. Garlemald doesn't bother expanding its borders for 800 years. That's 800 years worth of time for old grudges to be put aside and for the Garleans to focus on something else.

What does happen around 100 years after the Garleans are forced north is the founding of the Republic of Garlemald. And it's not exactly a peaceful founding either. One villiage proclaims itself the Garlean capital and then gets the other Garlean villages to go along with it either by negotiating with them or by forcing them too. And then they make sure they aren't invaded by either warring with the surrounding nations or by spying on them. I get the feeling that if Garlemald wanted to expand it's borders earlier, it would have. It's certainly got the long martial tradition to have attempted it earlier.

[Theodric]

Garlemald's situation did not improve until the discovery of Magitek. Up until that point, every day was a struggle to survive in a highly hostile environment. Their numbers never grew to any major extent in that time period - and its people did not get to enjoy much in the way of comfort or luxury. How would the Garleans have expanded their borders up until they acquired Magitek? They lacked the numbers to fight directly with any great success. They lacked the resources to fuel a prolonged campaign. What food they could secure was only able to be replenished during a small time frame. They also could not lean on the manipulation of aether for an extra boost.

It is highly unlikely that they would have succeeded at besting and occupying their neighbours if not for Magitek, which gave them a major advantage that spiraled into multiple victories that only ceased as of attempting to push into Eorzea beyond Ala Mhigo. Furthermore, when people are persecuted and endure hardships to the extent that the Garleans did those stories are passed down from generation to generation. You see it often in the real world, too. Though I won't bring up specific examples as that's the sort of can of worms best left unopened.

[Kusanagi7]

so garlemald were justified in stealing what doesn't belong to them and killing innocents and forcefully drafting people they conquer into their army thus tearing families apart and taking away peoples freedom hmm i really hope i don't meet you in game theo ill just say that.

[YianKutku]

How would the Garleans have expanded their borders up until they acquired Magitek?

Spycraft and mercenaries.

Like, this is clearly and explicitly explained in every single lore source, most notably the lorebook. I don't know why you seem to be ignoring it in favour of some unsupported speculation of your own.

[Theodric]

so garlemald were justified in stealing what doesn't belong to them and killing innocents and forcefully drafting people they conquer into their army thus tearing families apart and taking away peoples freedom hmm i really hope i don't meet you in game theo ill just say that.

You do realise it is a fictional setting, right? I think it's pretty troubling that you're trying to make some weird link between someone's views on a fictional race in a fictional setting. Alas, this board has become little more than an echo chamber prone to hyperbole and bias. Such things are to be expected, though. Many people here don't intend to have a discussion in good faith, they simply want to be seen as 'winning' an argument that doesn't need to happen in the first place. Nobody posting in this thread (beyond one exception) has ever interacted with me in-game. I'd suggest ceasing the personal attacks and humbly request an apology for your hurtful implication.

If you want to agree to disagree, I'm more than willing to do so. It's pretty clear that many of those posting in this thread do not wish to do that though. Worse yet, any attempts to get discussion up and running about things other than Garlemald and Garlean morality tend to die out because that's all many here seem to come here to post about these days.

I'd strongly recommend investing in a course on critical thinking. FFXIV isn't real. WoW isn't real. Someone can discuss and support a fictional race and defend them without being a terrible person in the real world. If anyone believe otherwise, then that says more about those resorting to such an argument than their target.

Those who wish to behave like mature adults are more than welcome to arrange to discuss any problems they have with me in a mature manner in-game or over Discord. If they do not wish to do that, I encourage them to make use of the forum's ignore feature or at least cease to respond to me.

[Alleo]

A fictional setting still have its own morals x) and as we see with Eorzea and other lands, they share similiar ones with us..so you cant just say that its fictional thus they are fine..and war crimes, horrible threatment of non garleans and no freedom of speech dont make them that great.

People have more than once discussed this with you, in quite the depth too. People can like what they want but if you make certain assumptions about something (even if its fictional) you have to accept to get other opinions and if they are using facts (like my list did some pages ago) and you are only responding with "that is overblown", "its not real", "people could just ignore my arguments, but I continue to post about Garlemald anyway" then there is a point were it gets enough and really start to feel like you want to start a fight.

There is no reason to discuss with someone that does not use facts. And there is no reason to discuss with someone that answers generally without going into detail why its wrong in their view or just ignore that post because there is no answer to it.

Also one has to ask themselves..if you find echo chambers here, on reddit, or even in WoW (which interestingly is not happy on how the horde is portrayed as evil again, thus again against your view) than maybe its not the majority that is wrong but you.

Again: You can like what you want but sometimes I get the feeling that you like the more bad sides but somehow dont want them to be seen too bad? Even though their portrayal does count as quite evil ingame..

Morally grey and perfect balance in every state, with every person and more is not realistic...you also have really bad (morally black) countries in real life too. And in this story, for now, Garlemald is shown as such a morally black country, while the other ones all are a variety of grey shades and share a lot of common problems that you will find in the countries of our world too (No country in any world will ever be morally white..).

(Also stop saying that people dont stop...while you yourself continue to react to every single bit of "Garlemald" in a topic...in this you started it already on page 1 by mentioning them quite a bit in your posts and then attack Cid, who had nothing to do with this topic..dont start the fire and then blame the others for it..)

Anyway how about going back towards the topic? Its not like you also need to answer the rest of us either. And quite a few of us also have discussed this and even brought out some questions.

[Caitlyn]

so garlemald were justified in stealing what doesn't belong to them and killing innocents and forcefully drafting people they conquer into their army thus tearing families apart and taking away peoples freedom

Garlemald is not an stereotype evil empire who wants to conquer all. Some leaders may be mercyless, but tell me who is not. What about as Ishgard slaughtered innocent Au Ra because of their dragon-like appearance? What about all fallen soldiers on both sides during Stormblood? Or the mass murderer who is called "Warrior of Light"? Nothing can be justified, but there is not only "good" and "evil". It depends on the point of view...

[Zephanoa]

Ultimately the empire and their characteristics are going to be under a microscope for some time as we presumably move towards it in the expansion. Every country has it's own blights in it's history and it's never as simple as "Well it's just the bad guy being the bad guy." There are many reasons that a country exudes it's influences. Security and prosperity seem to go hand in hand with this.

I think everyone is playing the part of doing what has to be done going forward. The empire will continue to exert pressure as to ward off an existential crisis. We cannot paint the Empire the same as her people as we don't know that all think the same way. There is a populares who seem to advocate for peace which I feel is probably a most genuine faction of the empire. Mother's regardless of political association aren't going to be be readily willing to send their sons off to war at the beckon call of the empire.

The other item to consider is that fear is a great way to enforce or gain control. I think as we move forward it's possible that we will see that the Ascian threat will be playing on the fears of the empire to execute it's bidding. We have liberated lands that belong to them and I am sure that looks threatening as an advance to take the empire.

[Kallera]

Garlemald is not an stereotype evil empire who wants to conquer all. Some leaders may be mercyless, but tell me who is not. What about as Ishgard slaughtered innocent Au Ra because of their dragon-like appearance? What about all fallen soldiers on both sides during Stormblood? Or the mass murderer who is called "Warrior of Light"? Nothing can be justified, but there is not only "good" and "evil". It depends on the point of view...

Agreed, there is a lot of things from the empire that were revealed to not be the case as we saw more and more of their history and people. back in 2.0 we never would have considered they would work with or hire beast tribes. back in 3.0 we were shocked at seeing a miqote soldier among them, and later in 4.0, lalafell casters.



I would hope there is an actual country there. Something that they fight for, and live for. That much like Ishgard, change was halted because of the fear caused from realities on the ground...visible environmental threats like the one in the burn, or a history of discrimination. a face of humanity that has taken to putting on a mask.

[Alleo]

Were people really shocked that they have other races in the army, that are probaly just conscripted by them? And do the Lupin count as a beast tribe? Because I got the feeling that they are just another race like us. At least none really treated them any different. Heck they seemingly just live in villages with other people and seemingly have not real "tribe place" like other beast tribes do.