Thread: The Road to 5.0

Originally Posted by Theodric

At any rate, Garlemald's ruthlessness is stated in the lore book to be due to the horrific persecution that they have endured over the years.

Does it?

I'm looking at it now, and I'm not seeing where that is said.

I do see an entry (under The Early Republic) that mentions how the Garlemald Republic "had but one goal: to unite its people in order to stave off foreign aggression." That being said, the foreign aggression mentioned in Portrait of a People and The Early Republic are the original expulsion to the frigid north and "occasional raids by more established tribes" that prevented the various small villages that existed before they created a central one from developing too much. Aggression by foreign powers, clearly, but "horrific persecution" would seem to suggest something more systemic, deliberate, targeted, and most importantly beyond the usual scope of similar actions. If occasional military action against a weaker power counts as horrific persecution, is not what they've done to the nations they've conquered and Eorzea also "horrific persecution."

There's one other entry that caught my eye under Unifying the North - the phrase "as if to avenge every wrong ever done to them." That's the closest it gets to prescribing a particular cultural motivation to their conquest, but that's also a figure of speech, not a confirmation of persecution, horrific or otherwise.

Honestly, after a close reading like this I'm just not seeing the "horrific persecution" motivation supported by the lore book, unless it is mentioned elsewhere in these text-heavy 300 pages (I'd not found anything in the timeline/recounting of the Sixth Astral era either). I'm seeing a once small nation subjected to the kind of military action that other small nations would be subject to (namely occasional raids of villages, not systemic persecution) that engineered its own advantage out of what it had - an advantage that was then used by ruthless individuals to further personal ambition.

In other words, the makings of a good antagonist, just not one that arose from horrific persecution and thus doesn't have that particular reason to fall back on when explaining why they act they way they do.

Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

I'd rather it really turn out that Garlemald did expand it's borders because it wanted to deal with the eikons. It at least gives them the maturity to grow past their origins.

It's possible this was a major influence in their decision to invade Eorzea specifically (though that's speculative, and the info we do have paints a picture of conquest ultimately due to ambition, not due to wanting to save the world through their own brand of dealing with it), but as I've detailed above I don't think it's at all due to what they went through in the past before the invention of magitek.

Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

Just so that we're all clear on the timeline of when things happened in Garlemald... Garlemald has been an Empire for about 80 years. Garlemald was a Republic for 800 years before it became an Empire. The people who would become the Garleans were forced north to present day Garlemald at least 100 years before that. So it's been approximately 980 years since the Garleans were forced north for the final time.

I'm sorry, but if the Garleans are really trying to sell that their expansion is somehow justified by what they went through almost a millennia ago, I'd think they're bald-faced liars about why they're expanding their borders. It'd be like saying present day Turkey would be justified if it invaded Germany because the Holy Roman Empire grabbed territory from the Byzantine Empire a millennia ago. The politics of Europe have changed so much in that time that that rational is laughable. I don't see how the politics of Ilsabard would be any different. Since the Garlean Republic was founded, whatever other contries were there at the time have probably risen and fallen, the people groups around them have probably changed, etc. In that same time period, Eorzea saw Belah'dia be split by civil war, Limsa Lominsa be founded, the Gelmora underground abandoned in favor of Gridania, and Gyr Abania is finally united at Ala Mhigo. I fully expect similar things happened in Othard and Ilsabard.

At some point, past slights should be left where they belong: in the past. If a millennia isn't long enough for past slights to be forgotten (or at least forgiven, after all, the original doers of the dead are long dead), then I'd say someone is purposely nursing a grudge. And grudges tend to not be able to be reasoned with...

I'd rather it really turn out that Garlemald did expand it's borders because it wanted to deal with the eikons. It at least gives them the maturity to grow past their origins. 'Cause if it really is just because of what they went through a millennia ago? Garlemald would be a good contender for having the most immature leaders of any country in the game currently.

I don't know. I just really, really hope the reason Garlemald started expanding its borders was not because of a millennia-old grudge.

I fully expect at this point that Ascian meddling is the main reason the empire has acted the way it has.

They readily go after anything/anyone they can use or manipulate to create conflict and chaos and a world power as great as Garlemald suits their needs perfectly. It won't surprise me at all if it turns out that they're pulling strings to try to get them to unwittingly cause the next calamity and feel like it's almost certain that they were already involved in the Meteor Project that eventually led to Bahamut being unleashed.

Originally Posted by Kusanagi7

guys it pointless trying to tell theo the misdeeds that garlemald has and is continuing to do in his eyes they can do no wrong.

It's statements such as this that make it crystal clear that quite a few posters don't even know what they're arguing about at this point. I have at no point excused Garlemald, I've pointed out frequently that it requires reform. I have, however, pointed out that they are not 'evil' and have reasons for acting the way that they do. I have also stated frequently that I am perfectly content to agree to disagree. People wish to 'win' by refusing to do that. You see the same mentality with football teams. You see the same mentality with WoW and the Horde/Alliance conflict. You see the same mentality with people getting outraged over someone else choosing to put pineapple on a pizza. In all cases, both viewpoints are valid.

I can't shake the feeling some people are simply unnerved that my statements have frequently rang true. Some of the more vocal posters rallying against Garlemald swore up and down that Regula was going to be the Kefka of FFXIV. I pointed out that he seemed like an honourable fellow...and he turned out to be just that. It happened again with Yotsuyu and Fordola. Vocal posters were saying that they deserved to die and had no sympathetic motives at all...and the game presented them as having sympathetic motives and made Yotsuyu's demise into a bittersweet tragedy. I can point out many more examples if need be, though I'd be lying if I said I wasn't tired of this line of discussion at this point.

Now, putting that aside...

The special site was updated today and reveals that Hien is going to be accompanying the Warrior of Light to The Burn. That's promising, since I was a little worried that he would be holed up in Doma as of the conclusion of the 4.3/4.4 storyline. He's a far more engaging character than Lyse, too, so that helps.

Originally Posted by KageTokage

I fully expect at this point that Ascian meddling is the main reason the empire has acted the way it has.

They readily go after anything/anyone they can use or manipulate to create conflict and chaos and a world power as great as Garlemald suits their needs perfectly. It won't surprise me at all if it turns out that they're pulling strings to try to get them to unwittingly cause the next calamity and feel like it's almost certain that they were already involved in the Meteor Project that eventually led to Bahamut being unleashed.

I think it's very likely. Given how fond the developers are of FFXII I also fully expect 5.0 to play up the political intrigue angle.

I for one enjoy your contributions, and I will agree on Hien.

I will also agree with the general sentiment that it would be preferable for the Ascians not to end up being the er... diabulus (sp?) ex machina that is used to explain every wrinkle in the Garlean story, particularly as the developers had previously hinted that there were other forces involved in the region.

Whilst I do like the Ascians, and would like to see SE do justice to their role in the game as powerful malefactors and schemers, it would render them rather wearisome, to see them involved in nearly every situation where something wicked stirs; so I am eager to see them introduce some unexpected twists and turns, particularly insofar as Elidibus is concerned. The same applies with making the Allagan the origin of all races in the game, etc. It's not good writing, so I do hope they see the wisdom of reining in any such urges. Having said that, going back to past events, Project Meteor does have a very Ascian vibe to it, but we know that eikons can also be very cunning, like Sophia and her attempt to deceive the Allagan empire into imprisoning her, as a trojan horse.

I wonder if Varis is going to try to backstab Elidibus like Thordan did Lahabrea.

He seems more cautiously optimistic then truly trusting of his methods, though the fact that he's allowing him to potentially stir up dissent within Garlemald by sending Zenos' followers after the Populares is a bit concerning.

Originally Posted by KageTokage

I wonder if Varis is going to try to backstab Elidibus like Thordan did Lahabrea.

He seems more cautiously optimistic then truly trusting of his methods, though the fact that he's allowing him to potentially stir up dissent within Garlemald by sending Zenos' followers after the Populares is a bit concerning.

Thordan could only pull that stuff off because you had already weakened the Ascians in question and he had the eye of Nidhogg at his disposal, and he was an eikon and able to manifest an aetheric sword to go along with it; it was an ideal set of circumstances. Bear in mind several of these things alone would not ordinarily suffice to slay an Ascian overlord. For Varis to pull off a similar feat would be rather incredible.

If you mean outsmarts, he may have greater chances there but again, Elidibus is a very skilled/gifted manipulator. Igeyorhm and Lahabrea were much more direct in their intentions.