The Road to 5.0

[Zephanoa]

... With all this talk of balance...

Why does a one true god give his followers freedom of choice? These are the tough questions... the real questions.

Elidibus probably has a very challenging role. If we are to take him at his word he has to aid -both- sides to maintain the balance. If I were to picture it, Elidibus has to make choices that ultimately balance out. To maintain that if one side is to move forward then he has to provide the opposing side a counter to maintain that balance. At any given moment he could have to sway one side or more. One does not do something without a benefit for themselves though. He needs the joining to happen, but it has to happen in a way that allows him to take control of the situation.

If we were to use Yin and Yang symbol as a reference. Instead of Elidibus functioning as the wavy radial line in the middle, what if he serves to be the diamater or the true end-game so to speak?

Elidibus summons WoD to provoke summonings. Elidibus provides Unukalhai as a means to battle the summoning.

I tend to lean that we are saving the Garlean's from themselves. If not from the Ascian threat, but also from the ceruleam threat (see FFVII Mako Energy). We are assured to see more Magitek in the future, but will we see primal magitek? Aether Crystals+Ceruleam=Disaster?

[Lauront]

*snip*

In that case, perhaps Elidibus is trying to prevent a premature summoning and to delay it until the time is just right. I doubt that he is the deluded one, if he is truly Zodiark's emissary - it's likelier in that case that the other Ascians are.

As for the Empire, aside from its history being part of the reasoning for wanting to expand its territories (perhaps to avoid being an underdog ever again), without the WoL, the city-states would be utterly useless and hopeless in dealing with the Eikon problem, with city-states like Ul'dah, Limsa and Ishgard in fact aggravating the problem and just taking an even cruder approach than the Garleans do. They have a leg up because a warrior blessed by the planet's goddess is helping them but without him they'd just be a less effective version of Garlemald, bashing their heads against the beast tribes and summoning eikons of their own making, e.g. to end the Dragonsong war.

I tend to lean that we are saving the Garlean's from themselves. If not from the Ascian threat, but also from the ceruleam threat (see FFVII Mako Energy). We are assured to see more Magitek in the future, but will we see primal magitek? Aether Crystals+Ceruleam=Disaster?

Much as we did the city-states from themselves, then.

I tend to think the two gods may be forced to offer freedom of choice, for the necessary conviction to be there for them to harness, at the very least from their paragons. It might be that sacrifice works, but is less potent in that regard. In connection to that, it is then entirely possible that the other Ascians wish to feed Zodiark by force, i.e. by sacrificing souls, whereas Elidibus considers conversion to be a better tool. Yet, obviously it's impossible to say. Maybe that's why he meant, whatever we do, it makes little difference to the Ascians.

[Theodric]

Garlemald has never been portrayed as evil. Ruthless? Certainly - though there's some pretty good reasons for that given the horrific persecution that Pureblood Garleans have endured throughout the ages. Time and time again we've seen that things are not so simple in regards to Garlemald. Gaius and Regula were shown to be honourable, particularly in the case of the latter. As far as the deaths of Garlean soldiers are concerned, let us not forget that Hien flooded Doma Castle. Drowning is an exceptionally traumatic and painful experience. Had it been Yotsuyu who had flooded the place to subject Doman fighters to the same fate I do not doubt that some of the regular posters here would be up in arms and pointing out how unforgivable and monstrous such an act was.

[Zephanoa]

Garlemald has never been portrayed as evil. Ruthless?

I guess it would depend on the individual's interpretation of evil. We know that the Empire tries to execute some level of information control. They definitely don't share in the same freedoms that Eorzean's have come to enjoy for that matter. We also know that they exert pressure to try to maintain control (one of which they are losing). Yotsuyu and Zenos were both products of the empire and were allowed to use their military might to terrorize people without any form of repercussions. Innocents died at their hands, and they mostly enjoyed doing so.


The ambiguity of their evils resides in the empire of eld vs the empire now. Different ruling party, different rules. The former being might = right the after being an empire baring it's fangs at all that would cause disarray.

[ObsidianFire]

Rising Poem
I think the Rising Poem is talking about two different individuals, both of who have the Echo. However, they use it in different ways. The first Echo-user is using the Echo to shine light around the realm while they travel over it. The second Echo-user is using it to sow darkness and confusion by transcending the differences between people (possession). It's very possible that the Poems is talking not about different individuals with the Echo, but different groups of people with the Echo. Both the WoL and the Ascians have the Echo, but they use it in very different ways and both the WoL and the Ascians have influenced both the situation in Ishgard and the situation in Ala Mhigo. Both of them are definetly going to influence the situation in Garlemald.

Balance (or unBalance)
Everything we've seen in the game (and from lore interviews) up until now indicates that the world has not been in balance since the Astral/Umbral Eras started. There's a lore interview somewhere (I can't find it, anyone knows which one it was?) where Koji revealed that when Hydaelyn sealed up Zodiark in the moon and shattered the shards, she did it out of desperation because she was weaker then Zodiark at the time. And that ever since then, the Ascians have been trying to rejoin the Shards to Hydaelyn which, once finished, will wake up Zodiark again. There's literally only one character in the entire game that does not act like this is what is really going on (Elidibus), but given his particular brand of "leaving out that one piece of information that turns the meaning of everything I told you on it's head" I'm not trusting him. Especially when the being whose influence he is trying to lessen is operating in a "all life is sacred to me, even if letting that shard be flooded with light would deny my enemy strength" mode.

I think it's safe to say that no one knows what a balance between Light and Darkness actually looks like. Maybe not even Elidibus. For all we know, he's as manipulated by Zodiark as Elidibus' pawns are manipulated by him. Further complicating this is that for a "true" balance of Light and Dark to exist, it might be that the word(s) as we know it might need to end. I think it's safe to say at this point that Hydaelyn stopped settling for a "true balance" in favor of "enough balance" so long as her children have the opportunity to live out their lives without Zodiark or Ascian involvement. However, the Ascians are all about meddling in people's lives and from what we can tell, Zodiark never wanted balance in the first place. I don't think they are going to stop until Hydaelyn doesn't exist anymore. Elidibus might care about balance, but he's willing to sacrifice everyone to bring it about.

Garlean Stuff
The Garleans have a major problem on their hands, that they should really be paying more attention to if they want to keep their cultural and technological improving. Their best engineers, their best playwright, and arguably one of their best generals have all decided that it's better for them to not be working with their state under the current regime. I can't imagine that they're the only Garleans who think that, it's just that they're the Garleans who had the means or opportunities to flee Garlemald and get away with it. I fully expect us to meet more Garleans who want to leave Garlemald in the coming patches. For me, Garlemald has gotten to the point where I'm less concerned with people betraying the country, then I am with the country betraying it's citizen's ideals for it. Once a country has gotten to that point, leaving it can be as much a deceleration of loyalty to what the country used to be as it can be a betrayal of what the country is turning into.

Cid and Nero summaries/ramblings (under spoiler)

I feel like calling Cid (and anyone else fleeing Garlemald) a traitor would be more okay if he was the only one. But he's not. Canonically, it's not just him who leaves Garlemald, it's him and a lot of the other engineers working in Garlemald with him who leave all at once. Cid leaving Garlemald is more like when Jenomis cen Lexentale left Garlemald. Or rather, I wouldn't at all be surprised if Jenomis decided it was time for him and a lot of the people in his theater company to do what Cid had done years earlier. In fact, both of them leave for similar reasons. Cid leaves because he can't stand to work on only the military projects the government wants him working on. Jenomis leaves because the government is dictating what he can't wright about. Both of them are creative geniuses whose government is interfering in their creativity. And generally speaking, when the "best of the best" of a country's creative talent decide to leave, that's not a good sign for the countries creative output. And modern Garlemald was built on the creativity of it's engineers...

Story-wise, I feel that Cid is a lot like Minfilia in that both of them got a lot of character development in 1.0 that is vital to who they are as a character, but then none of that character development is in 2.0 even though the game kinda assumes you know that it happened. Given what 1.0 reveals about Cid, I have a very hard time viewing him as a "weak" character, quite the opposite in fact! Cid is pretty much the son of the scientist who was the head of a military project that made WMD. The scientist is so obsessed with his project that he all but lets his best friend, one of the legati in the military, adopt his kid. Meanwhile, Cid graduates from the best engineering college in his nation, and is expected to design technology for the military since that's what all the good engineers in his country do. However, something goes wrong on the project his dad is working on and blows up the entire city the project is based in. That drives home to Cid what he is really working on and when he finds out he's been given his dad's job (the job that ultimately killed him), he decides to leave since his government/military don't take "no" for an answer.

However, he doesn't just get himself out. Many of the people who he works with don't like what they're doing either, so he gets all of them out. Instead of fighting directly against his native country however, Cid decides to go someplace that currently isn't in direct conflict with it. He sets up shop in the middle of nowhere and starts producing technology that has nothing to do with war and everything to do with making people's normal ordinary lives easier, which is something he never got to do before. In addition, the company he founds still has ties back to organizations in his native country that help people get out of it. However, his exposure to military technology (and the mindset behind people who want technology to be made for the military) has left him hypersensitive to what people can do with technology. He really doesn't want anything like WMD to be made, so he has a tenancy to be paranoid about what might or could be used to make it. And there's a lot of tech that could be used like that all over Eorzea...

Now, if only Cid's introduction in 2.0 was more specific about what was going on then it is... it glosses over so much it's almost a disservice to the character...

As for Nero... heh... I almost doubt he was ever loyal to Garlemald to begin with. He's the complete opposite of Cid in terms of upbringing. The Lore Book has him growing up in the backwoods of Garlemald, which he wanted out of. He puts in a ton of work and manages to get into the Magiteck Academy. There he shows a talent for reverse engineering ancient technology into modern technology. However, he's completely upstaged by the son of the best scientist in the nation, who for all practical purposes might as well be Garlean nobility. Nero gets annoyed by this and starts up a rivalry with Cid. Cid however, is completely oblivious to it. When Nero graduates, he get's offered a research position at the Academy, but there's a problem. Nero is obsessed with Allagan tech. The organization that gets first dibs on Allagan tech isn't the Academy. It's the military. So Nero turns down the position at the Academy and goes into the military instead. He doesn't just settle for being a good engineer, though. He manages to become the second-in-command of a legion. Coincidentally, the legion that is run by the legatus that all but adopted Cid. And if said legatus decides he isn't going to be showing up for that civil war going on back home? Well, at least chose a land filled with Allagan tech to take over instead. Nero's up to his eyeballs in tech to research, which is why he wanted out of Garlemald in the first place. He's probably wouldn't be going back to Garlemald even if he didn't have a death warrant waiting for him back home. That he as the opportunity to show up Cid again is icing on the cake.

Why yes.. I do think Cid and Nero are foils for each other...

[Anonymoose]

If we were to use Yin and Yang symbol as a reference. Instead of Elidibus functioning as the wavy radial line in the middle, what if he serves to be the diamater or the true end-game so to speak?

Elidibus summons WoD to provoke summonings. Elidibus provides Unukalhai as a means to battle the summoning.

The way I see both of these events is a bit different, I think - but it'll take some rambling to lay it out, lol:

The Ascians seem to be throwing everything at the wall and going with whatever sticks in each dimension. On "The First", they had no chance of doing things the traditional way. The power of Light was inherently high in that dimension and Darkness could never take root; Hydaelyn's chosen made short work of every threat, but then Hydaelyn couldn't hit the brakes. And keep in mind that right before the Warriors of Darkness showed up is in the Post-Ultima phase when She fell silent for a while and ended up too weak to even keep Minfilia manifested and talking. So the Warriors went too far and caused a Flood of Light; the dimension was going to be lost.

Elidibus used Hydaelyn's silence to his advantage, telling the Warriors that they must join forces for the "greater good" and see their world Rejoined, because in this way the aether would live on and they might be reborn through the Lifestream rather than all aether being annihilated by blank, white perfection. But as far as I can tell, if Elidibus's loyalty to Zodiark is absolute (Encyclopedia Eorzea) the the Moon hates the Star's children (Gerun Oracles), this was just pretext. Elidibus didn't give a damn about them or their ability to be reborn one day, he just wanted the aether for Zodiark, and indeed he just shrugged it off when his pawns died. Elidibus deliberately left out that the cosmos was more complex and there were more options than "rejoin or become void", and Urianger exploited that to his benefit.

Elidibus is banking on convincing mortals that the broken universe is an unsustainable, unnatural aberration - an abomination of the cosmos that must be redressed before it causes the collapse of existence as we know it. I have faith that it's more complex than that and just maybe we don't really need to kill entire worlds worth of people "for the greater good".

And as far as I can tell, to Elidibus, Unukalhai was nothing more than another pawn - no different than the Eyes of Nidhogg. Thordan was supposed to eat the Warring Triad, kill all the dragons, and begin a holy crusade to temper the world. Instead he ganked Lahabrea, got ganked by the Warrior of Light, and merely woke the Triad up. The Triad, being unfathomably powerful primals sans the cultures that spawned them, could't be predicted, manipulated, or controlled. They were going to essentially become cats on his chessboard, trampling all over the place and knocking pieces to the floor - upending careful machinations and putting the great war to come in jeopardy (except now he'd need something to take Thordan's place ... say, if the Eorzean Alliance gained more allies and took back two cities).

So he took Unukalhai out of space stasis and threw him at the Warrior of Light. Of course that hopeless sap was going to take in a child with the Echo who never got to fulfill his destiny and lost everything in his world, and of course that kid was going to bond with the allies he never had and end up helping them take the Triad down. And by the end of it Urianger and Unukalhai both don't think Elidibus really did it for the sake of the Light.

Both of these events make him look even more like a villain to me.

[Alleo]

Just bear in mind an imbalance of Light/Darkness will result in the world being destroyed, or at least being rendered unrecognisable. This happened to the world now known as the Void, which Igeyorhm plunged into Darkness, and also Arbert's homeworld, where the Light became so powerful it is searing the world. Neither are optimal. So, ending Zodiark without somehow ending Hydaelyn will have the same result... and if Hydaelyn ends, at the least the Blessing of Light will be forfeit. Possibly the Echo as well. Though maybe the Resonance will help solve that. We'll probably need it for whatever villains come up in 6.0 and maybe 7.0.

Yoshi-P may be toying with us, after all, but I think they've thrown plenty of hints now at the theme of the upcoming expansion and its likely setting.

The problem for me at least is, that we kinda need wins to get the balance into the middle ground again. Why? Well because the Ascians were winning and managed quite some calamites already and we are the only hope that Hydaelyn has. That does not sound like a side that is bringing too much light to the table but more as the person that fights from a bad position.

I also do wonder how they will end the story if Light and Darkness needs to be balanced. Does that mean that we must keep the Ascians alive and thus always the danger of Zodiark awakening? What exactly is Darkness? Is it being evil? And if that is the case, shouldnt humanity be fine because we are mostly morally grey characters that often like to start conflict?

Honestly for me this concept of balance is still quite strange..because in the end that would mean that our character would need to sit back and allow big bad stuff to happen..

Garlemald has never been portrayed as evil. Ruthless? Certainly - though there's some pretty good reasons for that given the horrific persecution that Pureblood Garleans have endured throughout the ages. Time and time again we've seen that things are not so simple in regards to Garlemald. Gaius and Regula were shown to be honourable, particularly in the case of the latter. As far as the deaths of Garlean soldiers are concerned, let us not forget that Hien flooded Doma Castle. Drowning is an exceptionally traumatic and painful experience. Had it been Yotsuyu who had flooded the place to subject Doman fighters to the same fate I do not doubt that some of the regular posters here would be up in arms and pointing out how unforgivable and monstrous such an act was.

Hmm..

-Planning to let a moon fall onto a whole continent thus killing many many people and rendering the place not liveable.
-Creating poison that should have been used (and may have been used) against the people of Eoreza.
-Doing experiments on people (remember all the bodies when we got Kryle back?) and having even a monster with a Garlean third eye.
-Letting someone like Zenos ruling two countries, knowing how he behaves. (And letting him kill even his own men)
-Forcefully conscripting people from other countries to fight the war for Garlemald.
-Pureblood obsession where you are seen as a lesser person if you are not a true Garlean
-No freedom of speech at least under Varis (Theatre group)
-Destroying the seal on the lake by killing Middy thus breaking the seal on the primals and causing a lot of primal summoning through their actions. (Ramuh because slyphs are afraid of them, destroyed envoirements thanks to the last calamity leaving to conflicts between tribes and the people living there)
-Destroying envoirement through their technology (look at that one polluted river in one of the new zones, nearly destroying necessary fishing grounds)
- Planned genocide of the whole beast tribes, even though they were the fire for a lot of the conflicts and summoning.

Are there honorable members in there. Sure! Is the government evil and uses quite some things that are bad? Yes! Does that mean that the people of Garlemald are all evil? No. But that does not change the view that Garlemald that does exist right now is bad for the world. I mean nobody would call the horde in BfA morally grey anymore x)..the actions of your leaders are important about the view of your country and that is not that great right now.

[Berethos]

Garlemald has never been portrayed as evil. Ruthless? Certainly - though there's some pretty good reasons for that given the horrific persecution that Pureblood Garleans have endured throughout the ages.

An experience that most currently living Garleans will not have been through, since the nations that were persecuting them were conquered over 50 years back.

Most Garleans forces and/or leaders now are either perpetuating the ruthless ambition of Solus, conscripts, or may actually want peace (the Populares I believe was the group) and to stop the expansionist approach currently favored.

The persecution of their forefathers is a hollow excuse to conquer at this point, and justifies nothing, especially when most of the purebloods currently alive are the ones that have been persecuting others.

[Theodric]

Thankfully we can take comfort in the fact that everything on that list is blown out of proportion and conveniently missing the wonderful nuances that are so very common in FFXIV's story. Eorzea is no saint and had been involved in atrocities across the ages, both past and present. The only thing stopping Eorzea from going off of the deep hand in the present day has, ironically, been the Warrior of Light. Who conveniently shows up to solve almost any and every problem that the Eorzeans have faced. For those individuals and nations who do not have such a convenience to lean upon, however, they are forced to make hard decisions and unpopular choices.

I remember when some people on this board were convinced that Regula, Yotsuyu and Fordola were without redeeming qualities and/or sympathetic motives and would be outright villains. That wasn't true in any of the three cases and is unlikely to be the case with other Garleans other than, perhaps, Zenos. The same can be said of many other characters as well, including Thordan, Ilberd and Lolorito. The game very rarely embraces black and white morality. It's also a JRPG - and many JRPG's have the lovely habit of going to great lengths to explain the motives of the antagonists whilst making them sympathetic and/or redeeming them.

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Spoilers ahead for past Final Fantasy titles as well as minor spoilers for Xenoblade Chronicles 2!
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Xenoblade Chronicles 2 is, for example, launching an expansion in a few weeks. The premise of the expansion heavily revolves around experiencing the story of one of the game's major antagonists before circumstances forced them to switch sides. Though for the sake of fairness, let's limit things to the Final Fantasy franchise.

Final Fantasy IV's story revolved heavily around the grey morality of both Cecil and Kain. Both were redeemed and the latter went on to become one of the most popular characters in the franchise. Golbez, one of the game's primary antagonists was also redeemed.

Final Fantasy VII's story also contained a lot of grey morality. The protagonists start the game engaging in terrorism which resulted in civilians being killed. They're forced to confront that mistake later on. Of the major antagonists, Sephiroth is given sympathetic motives but is not redeemed. Jenova isn't redeemed either, though given that she's essentially a parasitic alien from another planet that's understandable. Rufus Shinra, however, is redeemed - albeit as of the game's 'sequels'. He doesn't lose control of his company, he doesn't stop being pragmatic or cold and calculating. He simply works to ensure that the planet does not risk dying for the sake of profit and invests in a different approach. The Turks are also presented as secondary antagonists, though are never killed off by the protagonists.

Final Fantasy VII's story gave us Seifer, Edea, Fujin and Raijin. They were redeemed by the end of the game and given sympathetic motives for their actions/circumstances. One can argue that the game's primary antagonist, Ultimecia, also qualifies - with her drastic actions being a consequence of persecution.

Final Fantasy IX's story gave us Brahne, Beatrix and Kuja as major antagonists. All three of them are redeemed or given sympathetic motives at various points in the game's story...and all three were involved in attempted genocide and the destruction of multiple nations.

Final Fantasy X's story gave us Jecht and Seymour. Both were given sympathetic backstories and immense character development. Both were presented as victims of the horrid cycle that the game's world was trapped in.

Final Fantasy XII's story gave us Larsa, Drace, Gabranth and Vayne. In the case of the first three, they have sympathetic motives and are shown to be genuinely good people at heart. All three turn against the game's primary antagonist, Vayne...who ultimately wanted to free mortals from the deception and manipulation of the gods.

I could go on, but I don't want this post to get too long. My main point is that it doesn't matter if certain characters or factions do something morally grey. There's no reason they can't be redeemed or even excused with solid storytelling...

Not every character who does something bad needs to be killed off, either. Some of the more interesting characters are those who have and continue to do bad things but such is done for a noble cause. Sometimes a misguided one, but still.

Yet, if we went with the approach of killing off any character that dares do anything questionable with their lives then pretty much all of the characters listed above would have to be killed off and the franchise would not be nearly as successful as it has been.

Not all of us want to have gritty fantasy settings conform strictly to modern day concepts of morality. We also don't want every character being as bland as Lyse as to 'not offend' those who get worked up over characters/factions doing shady things.

[Berethos]

Thankfully we can take comfort in the fact that everything on that list is blown out of proportion and conveniently missing the wonderful nuances that are so very common in FFXIV's story. Eorzea is no saint and had been involved in atrocities across the ages, both past and present. The only thing stopping Eorzea from going off of the deep hand in the present day has, ironically, been the Warrior of Light. Who conveniently shows up to solve almost any and every problem that the Eorzeans have faced. For those individuals and nations who do not have such a convenience to lean upon, however, they are forced to make hard decisions and unpopular choices.

Hard choices like subjugating nations and provinces that weren't the ones "persecuting" them 50+ years ago, forcing families apart with conscription, and generally starting the very conflicts that have led to several of Eorzea's major issues that the WoL has had to solve, all because one man and his family convinced enough Pureblood Garleans that they were better than everyone else and thus deserved to rule over everyone else.

Hell, even enough of their own populace think they are in the wrong, or the Populares wouldn't exist.

Their "hard decisions" and "unpopular choices" are little more than the ruthless ambition of the leadership to rule over others, or additional solutions to problems they've had a major hand in creating.