Thread: The Road to 5.0

Originally Posted by Lauront

Seems like we could easily see a repeat of history on this star. There is no question he is serving Zodiark - which would make him a "villain". We will see what the options beside rejoin or become void are, and we will also see if Hydaelyn ends up being one of the typical JRPG tropes of a good god actually being little more than an amoral force, which we imbue with good intentions. I'd love it if she's lying about being the creator.

I have a feeling it's not a case of her lying but simply avoiding mentioning key pieces of information, much like Elidibus. We've seen multiple examples of her refusing to communicate efficiently and effectively with those she has empowered. Ysayle is an excellent example. Many innocent Ishgardians were slain because she was granted the power of the Echo and become delusional as a result of misinterpreting her visions. Though she did learn the error of her ways at a later point.

When combined with the fact that we're constantly being told that the Echo is a force we do not fully understand by the Ascians I think it's fair to suggest that it is very much a double edged sword.

It didn't really occur to me that the song is potentially referring to two different individuals or groups.

Someone on Reddit suggested that the latter half was referring to the Ascians, as they were attempting to perpetuate the Dragonsong War by aiding Thordan and kicked off the events of Stormblood by giving the Griffon the Eyes of Nidhogg, which the "weave an azure lie" and "doth crimson bleed" could refer to. They could also be considered "heroes" in the sense that their actions are preventing the world's balance from shifting too much in the light's favor.

O hero of rebirth transcending

It occurs to me that "transcending" is a word specifically used in combination with describing the Echo.

From the lorebook, p.15: some ways the Echo manifests are "the power to transcend words" (understand other languages), "transcend time" (flashbacks) and "transcend worlds".

The exact description of that last one is: "Though rare, there have also been cases reported of individuals who, through the manifestation of Hydaelyn's very light, can walk the aetherial plane and communicate directly with the planet Herself."

Originally Posted by Zephanoa

We... still... do not know whose face Varis saw in Elidibus.

4.3 makes it fairly clear that Elidibus has taken over Zenos's body, so it's almost certainly that. (Although I do remember someone querying the timing of it - that it seemed to take place too soon after the battle for Zenos's body to have been buried and stolen.)

Originally Posted by Zephanoa

Why does a one true god give his followers freedom of choice? These are the tough questions... the real questions.

And a question that's been debated in real religion for some time now.

The argument for a benevolent god allowing free will is that they want their followers to truly want and choose to do so, not force them into it.

If people are mind-controlled to be good all the time, is that still really 'good' or is it meaningless?

But that's a whole complex debate that's probably well beyond the scope of this discussion.

Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

Cid and Nero summaries/ramblings

That's all really interesting! I still need to catch up on all the details of 1.0.

Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

makes me wonder is Solus himself had an Ascian "counselor" (hells, maybe Lahabrea himself), who told him it was a great idea to send his flagship down to conquer this little piece of land called Eorzea, especially fly it over Mor Dhona, nothing can go wrong there, no siree.

And most likely told Solus all about the ancient eikon summonings that drained the Burn of aether, too...

Originally Posted by Theodric

Varis, at least, doesn't seem to be fond of Elidibus. Nor has he been shown to trust him. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if Elidibus ends up taking out Varis and ascends to the throne whilst piloting Zenos' corpse. Ideally, I'm hoping for an interesting tale where Varis is exiled and/or barely escapes with his life and ends up aligning with the Warrior of Light out of necessity. When Regula died, his last words were about how the Emperor would have need of the Warrior of the Light in the future. I'm still waiting for the payoff from that particular plot thread.

Interesting thought on Elidibus-as-Zenos becoming Emperor. Use Varis for as long as he can, kill him off when he's no longer cooperating. Perhaps Varis even realises this is a potential outcome, and it's one of the reasons why he's warily going along with Elidibus for now.

There's an unfortunate issue with bringing Regula's death into the MSQ plotline though, and that's because the Warring Triad questline is optional (unless they force us to go back and do them at some point) and so there's no guarantee that Regula has died yet in any one player's game.

I wish it was part of the MSQ. It feels like a bit of a waste as a side plot, and makes it difficult to bring Unukalhai into the MSQ character group as well.

Originally Posted by Theodric

So, Imperial Shinobi attempted to assassinate Zenos on Titus' behalf.

I think you've misinterpreted this.

There's no guarantee they are acting on Titus's orders, although it's fairly likely.

All we can be certain from the story is that this assassination attempt has been arranged by the viceroy - the one who will suffer "the ignominy of failing to protect a royal guest" for the sake of killing off Zenos - but we can't tell if he's planned this with Titus, or if he's acting independently to remove his ally's opponent and secure his own continued position.

Also, just on a technicality - they're not "imperial shinobi", they're imperial soldiers dressed up as Doman shinobi. (In game terms, think of an NPC geared as a ninja but clearly in paladin stance!)

Originally Posted by Lauront

Really now? Because the Dragonsong War seems to be pretty close in terms of how bad it is.

Good point, Ishgard's lore has been pretty dark - even before revealing The Truth, what with the inquisition and the witch-hunts and everything.

It does seem to be taking a massive turn for the better though, and even in pre-Heavensward there's some dialogue indicating that Aymeric has a much less zealous take on the Halonic religion.

Originally Posted by Lauront

We will see what the options beside rejoin or become void are, and we will also see if Hydaelyn ends up being one of the typical JRPG tropes of a good god actually being little more than an amoral force, which we imbue with good intentions. I'd love it if she's lying about being the creator.

I'm really, really tired of this trope. And I agree that we're likely headed for it. Again. The Twelve are probably just myths and Hydaelyn isn't the Big Good after all.

Can't we just have a cosmology where things actually function as set out at the beginning of the story? For once?

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

EEEEEVIL with a capital EEEEE

This made me laugh.

Originally Posted by Alleo

(Also I am still a bit annoyed that neither the WoL nor the Scions tried to find out more about the floods and the balance after they have met the WoD..it will probably only be interesting again if the plots wants it to be..)

The Scions (specifically Urianger) did find out more about floods and the balance of Light and Darkness on the shards. That's what Urianger is doing for the better part of the 3.1-3.4 patch cycle. He's taking a page out of Elidibus' playbook and convincing Elidibus that he is on his side to figure out what Elidibus and the WoD are planning. Once he did find that out, he figured out a way to give the WoD a third option. Instead of having to watch their Shard get flooded with light or bring about a Rejoining (another Umbral Calamity), he figures out the WoD can ask Hydaelyn to take the light of the WoD shard back into herself. In fact, the only reason Hydaelyn can do that is because Urianger orchestrates events so the WoD can get a weakened Hydaelyn's attention. Once she knows about what is happening on the WoD shard, Hydaelyn is the one who suggests that she send her Emissary to the WoD shard to absorb the excess light into Hydaelyn.

So yeah, Urianger's the only person we've met so far who can beat Elidibus at his own game. The amount of knowledge that required is immense and is the direct result of years spent studying esoteric prophecies that no one else bothers looking at. Mostly because they're busy saving the realm doing other stuff or worse, people have bothered looking at this stuff but stand by Sharlyan's non-interference policy... Part of Urianger's character is that he's the researcher studying everything in the background and only brings up what he is researching when it is relative to the plot. I'm fully anticipating that once it's confirmed that Elidibus is involved in Garlamald, he'll show up again. At the very least, the Scions (and probably the Popularis) are going to want his advice on everything the Ascians are up to and he's the closest thing we have to an expert on the subject.

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

So... the shining dawn of rebirth, the azure skies of day, the crimson fires of sunset... the shadowy depths of twilight? Perhaps that speculation about the patches corresponding to times of day was right on the money. (Who shot that one from the hip, anyway? That deserves a toast.)

I found the original post I was thinking of - and rather appropriately, it's about last year's song from the Rising!

Originally Posted by FJerome

For the sake of future reference here's the entire song for this year;

'Neath azure skies a soul burned bright, stars soon gathered 'fore its might ♪
By their radiance truths lay bare, a nation freed from deep despair ♪

As the heavens take a crimson hue, friends now gather, old and new ♪
By their deeds doth freedom ring, once more their hearts have cause to sing ♪

It's much more retrospective in tone than it's been in past years and probably scans better in Japanese, since there the expansions were called "Blue Skies of Isghard" and "Crimson Liberators". If it hints at anything at all, I'm going to take a guess it means we're going to spend the next year or so continuing our efforts to reform Isghard alongside rebuilding Doma and Ala Mhigo.

Also that emphasis on sky colours makes it seem like we're going from midday to sunset and what comes next is going to be nightfall, which sounds pleasingly ominous.

Originally Posted by Theodric

Varis, at least, doesn't seem to be fond of Elidibus. Nor has he been shown to trust him.

This is questionable. The second part, at least - if Varis didn't trust Elidibus (or, at least, trust that their short-term goals are currently aligned), why would he be allowing the Ascian free rein to traipse around in his son's body? While it's true that not!Varis is "convalescing", he's apparently free to send ambassadors and organize Primal summonings. It's possible that Varis is trying to protect his people from the carnage that would ensue if they attempted to apprehend or kill an Ascian in the middle of the capital, but that seems far-fetched.

It has been demonstrated to my satisfaction that Varis trusts Elidibus enough to allow the Ascian to pursue his own agenda while in Zenos's body. It's certainly possible that Varis has plans in the works to double-cross Elidibus, just as Thordan had plans to double-cross his own Ascian allies (and even personally informed the Warrior of Light as such, long before he did the deed!), but I'm guessing he'll be less successful, if so. Still, allowing Elidibus to have his way for now is likely just another in the glorious Garlean tradition of making ruthlessly pragmatic decisions that backfire horrendously in ways no one could really have anticipated. It's not even Elidibus's endgame, yet, and he's already orchestrated a Primal summoning of which I seriously doubt Varis would have approved. Things are bound to get worse.

Originally Posted by Alleo

My problem is still the understanding how you can create too much light.

Or darkness, for that matter (as Laurant brought up, as well). I don't think even the Ascians know for certain how this comes to pass. They don't want it to happen any more than we do, and yet one of their number personally caused a Flood of Darkness (for which she was roundly chastised and made a flunky of Lahabrea as punishment). It's apparently a delicate balancing act, though.

It's also really vague. Just what IS Darkness? It's supposedly something different from simple "evil" and light is supposedly different from "good". All we really know is that they are forces in conflict - but who is on which side? All three examples we've seen of the "light" side have had humans on the side of Light (even the Warriors of Darkness were Light-aligned before they wound up doing too good a job and dooming their world), but that doesn't necessarily mean that non-humans are on the side of Dark.

It's probably the biggest evidence that I can see that Elidibus might be telling the truth when he implies that cosmology is all out of whack and needs to be "fixed" (even if doing so kills all existing life). It seems that the Ascians HAVE to meddle, because if they don't then worlds are lost to the Light.