Thread: The Road to 5.0

@Cilia: Thanks for this long thoughtful post. (Also many likes for that part about Wow )

Do they really want to help the planet? Or isnt that just one "argument" used to further be able to go to war? Because as you pointed out, before they ever saw their first primals they were already conquering other countries for their own gain. Only after seeing them did they put them on their agenda too. But honestly I do question if this was for the sake of the world, or just because they are stopping them in their conquest.

Because as we know they had no problem destroying part of the forest, which was one part that made the Slyphs afraid of them. They polluted one of the lakes in Ala Mhigo which is now just a brown thing. And they nearly destroyed the eco system of the ruby sea.

Anyway just to point out: I dont believe that everyone in Garlemald is evil. Someone pointed out Isghard and yes they were horrible too but at least they never took their conflict to other countries and just stayed isloated to battle the dragons. But they were able to change and if Garlemalds leaders are gone too and they change their behaviour they could become allies.

Like the example with any nation having a malfoy or a dumbledore. And I agree with that, but it still does not help anyone if the one in charge of it, is a Voldemort. (Or as the horde right now would say: That is not my warchief) And as long as Voldemort remains on top and makes the decision, the nation and everyone else will suffer. Thus those in the lead are imo evil.

Originally Posted by Cilia

A-anyway, I hopped on and did the Rising event for the year... doesn't really bode well. It doesn't sound like things are going to work out for us, or perhaps the "hero of rebirth transcending" refers to Zenos? I'm going to go with the latter.

I still believe that they meant the Ascians with it. Kinda how they helped to keep the lie up in Ishgard and how they would have started a bloody war in SB. And now it seems that they are working behind the scenes in Garlemald too. And the villian often see themselves as the hero of their own story so maybe thats why they are called hero in the poem.

Another thing backing up the inversion from real-world historical context is that a lot of the Optimates (nobility) work to curry the Emperor's favor, not undermine his authority. Lolorito reached out to Garlemald's upper crust through his merchant network before the Calamity in an effort to dissuade them from going through with Meteor to no avail. One can only presume this was due to wanting the Emperor's favor and thus being unwilling to overtly denounce Meteor.

Meanwhile we know for a fact that the Populares (populists) want to forge more peaceful relationships with other countries based on our interactions with them during 4.2 and 4.3, and if their label is accurate and the little information we presently have from Thancred regarding the social climate in Garlemald as a result of Tsukuyomi is accurate... the Populares are indeed working for the common folk (as a "liberal" stance seems to be the minority in Garlemald).

Originally Posted by Alleo

@Cilia: Thanks for this long thoughtful post. (Also many likes for that part about Wow )

Well, I can't limit my justice-bringing to just one world! [/sarcasm]

I do believe the Garleans are earnest in their desire to preserve the world, but the question then becomes for whose sake? Their own, of course, and only their own. (Cf. the Eorzeans, who unified to try and prevent the Calamity, fought off Imperial aggression with Operation Archon, lent their aid to Ishgard at the Steps of Faith, and banded together to free Ala Mhigo from Imperial occupation, as well as the Domans (or at least Hien) who lent their aid to Ala Mhigo's liberation as well).

As for the Imperial leadership being evil...? Well, given Varis' first major act on the stage is to order the extermination of the Zundu tribe despite them not being tempered, calling him "good" is a long stretch. A Well-Intentioned Extremist, perhaps, but the road to Hell is paved with good intentions and extremism rarely leads anywhere good. Killing innocents (or at least ordering their deaths) cannot be construed as a good action unless it is absolutely necessary, which is simply not the case there. Even then it's still a stain on the soul of the one who does the deed, necessary or not, that must simply be lived with. The issue is that someone like Varis doesn't consider it a stain on his soul - it's perfectly acceptable to him to murder innocents if it fulfills his ambition; the man himself may not be evil, but from most perspectives his ambitions and the means he is willing to use to achieve those ambitions most definitely are. Subjugating the world... isn't exactly what most people would consider an amicable ambition, regardless of why you have that ambition, and taking a Machiavellian stance to do so is going to do the opposite of making you friends.

Evil though? Malice for malice's sake? Not quite. Someone whose ambitions need to be kept in check, through force if necessary, due to the death and destruction those ambitions entail? Most definitely.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good people do nothing - whether it's Varis trying to put the entirety of Hydaelyn beneath his heel, or Sylvanas killing hundreds if not thousands of civilians because nobody is willing to make a moral stand against her. The why behind both cases is understandable and truly morally grey, but the means used to achieve those ends are anything but.

Originally Posted by Cilia

Well, I can't limit my justice-bringing to just one world! [/sarcasm]

Thanks for your answer.

Then the question is, who are truly evil in your eyes? We know that Varis idea of solving the problem with the primals is genocide. That alone should make someone really morally black. The only reason some might consider genocide a necessary task is, if there are no other options and leaving them alive would kill everyone else. None of that really can be said about the beast tribes, since we do know that this would also mean the death of all of those that are not tempered and want just to live in peace. Also what if they find out that everyone could summon a primal if they have enough belief and crystals? What if he find out that echo user could theoretically turn into primals without losing their minds? Would he start a echo user hunt too?

We also know thanks to the theater group, that the former emporer was still allowing any kind of art to happen, even those that might be a bit negative towards them. They said that Varis does not allow that and only allows something that he likes, thus there is no true freedom of speech under him either and that kinda makes him into a dictator. Who knows if those nobels are just puppets that can be killed if they are not following his view. I mean he had no problem sending in soldiers to shot down a ship with another opposing partie in it, so he is not bellow killing those that could be a danger to his rule.

Then his reaction to the death of his son that surely was not born as such a messed up person and now he is even working with Elidibus. He might have other reasons for doing it but he is still working with those that are the reasons that beast tribes even know how to summon primals.

And then we have all the other horrible things like human experimentation as an example. He as the head must have known of them. Yet nothing was done thus they are probably given a pass by him.

I am just curious of what he should still need to do to be seen as at least slightly evil by you. (Again just curious, I am agreeing with a lot of your points too.)

In the end the english word evil has a lot of different words for in german and for me this just means that he is a bad person, that does or orders quite some bad things. Maybe I could say it more around: I find Varis to be a bad person, who is imo a morally black person thanks to his actions and plans.

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Not to speak for Cilia, but in my mind the question of who is genuinely evil comes down to the personal motivations for their actions. If you're doing evil things for selfless reasons (save the world, protect a loved one, promote the growth of a nation) you are not necessarily evil, wherein if you do them for selfish reasons (you want somebody's stuff, you take joy in the suffering of others, you enjoy having power over others), you're most likely evil. There can certainly be some overlap; you can persecute a group of people because you see them as a genuine threat to your own people and ALSO enjoy watching those people suffer.

I currently see characters like Varis and Elidibus as not evil, even if their actions are evil. They're doing them for what they believe to be good ends, and I don't see them as having actual malice toward the people they harm.. Yotsuyu was definitely evil; she did evil deeds purely for personal satisfaction - and having a tragic backstory explaining why she became evil doesn't change the fact that she is. Lahabrea is likely a combo; he, like Elidibus, is working toward what he sees as a good and necessary end, but clearly enjoys lording it over the poor mortals he torments.

I gotta question what kind of greater good Varis is working towards that necessitates the wholesale murder and censure of any and all political opposition that gets a degree of exposure. Or a national expansion that in standard operation enslaves and attempts to erase other cultures while pilfering every natural resource they can get their hands on. What does he get out of that outside of personal profit?

With the power plays, the research into neurolinking and trapping of primals that goes way against the mission statement of the nation, resonance research, the weakening of the senate to further consolidate his own power base; I think what Varis is all about is keeping Varis on the throne, and just pays lip service to the Galvus legacy.