We Really Need To Talk About The State And Path Of FFXIV

[Bourne_Endeavor]

So because someone likes grinding, everyone must grind? And why must the boss fights be grinded? Is that a law that must be a part of the game? Why not grind to get to the boss fights? Be forced to grind a currency to even enter the fight. Is that something you'd desire too? More grinding? We can even grant better drop rates if the fights take effort in getting to.

In a word, yes. Welcome to MMOs. They are grindy by necessity because no dev team can produce content fast enough sate how quickly players devour it. Say Alphascape comes out in a month and gives everything upon being killed once. How do you purpose th devs keep people entertained for the next 7-9 months? The raid that's intended to last two full patch cycles has no relevance after one clear.

Basically, you want a single player experience in a MMO. That isn't how this genre works.

[HyoMinPark]

Warning, long post because daily post limits are dumb, and there were several things I wanted to respond to.

Too much of this game's content is tied to combat to go down that road. MSQ, new duties and new raids, I need decent gear if I'm going to experience them. Since I don't endlessly repeat duties and raids, I don't really benefit from those reward systems and my less experience with those raids and duties require me to go in with better gear so as to not be that much of a burden to the team.

Because this game is based primarily around PvE content and progression through it, not DoH/DoL progression, although that does exist. That’s just not the way the game is designed. Hence why there’s all the battle content. Anything crafted is more than enough for MSQ content during a give tier. Same for normal mode raids and trials—

Patch 4.2: i350 crafted gear available
Patch 4.3: i350 crafted gear is able to upgrade to i360 Augmented gear
Item levels for content released during the second tier of raid/gear:
—Sigmascape Normal Mode (i325)
—Byakko NM (i325)
—Castrum Fluminis (i335)
—Ridorana (i335)
—Rathalos NM (i320)

The same will be the case for Patch 4.4 and the i380 crafted gear; they will be more than enough to get you through the third tier of raid/gear. If you aren’t repeating the duties that often, you don’t need more than the crafted gear. If you want higher item level gear, then you will have to put in the effort to get it; just like everyone else has to do. You’ve mentioned again how you don’t “benefit” from the rewards from duties—so then why do you care about them so much? If your passion lies with DoH/DoL, why do you care so much about DoW/DoM?

You mention being a burden, but the only way you would be a burden to your party is if you refuse to try or refuse to participate in the content. Higher item level / better gear =/= automatically not a burden to your team; trust me, I’ve seen people in Savage gear that couldn’t DPS their way out of a paper bag. Conversely, I’ve seen people in crafted gear pull amazingly high numbers. It takes much more than item level to determine your worth to a party.

It's new content to experience. I don't hate raids and duties when I'm first experiencing them, I'm seeing new sights and seeing new content. But the cycle of repetition, of repeating duties and raids is that I don't find fun. You really have to commit to the repetition to see the rewards. I've killed Ex-Death like 30 times to get a certain set of Samurai gear for the glamour, but it was an aggravating experience. It was fun learning the fights of Deltascape at first, the requirements to actually get armor out of the fights is just something that kills the fun of it for me.

Such is the nature of the content—RNG with regards to drops is there to promote, however hollow you think it is, a sense of longevity. If people got all their gear from the normal mode content within their first run, they wouldn’t run it anymore unless they enjoyed the content. You’ve stated you don’t enjoy it, so I’m sure you wouldn’t run it any more than you would have to.

30 runs of Exdeath may seem like a lot, but if you spread it out, it’s not. The problem there lies with, did you farm it all back-to-back and burn yourself out?

The only requirements for getting gear from content is RNG. Nothing else. Such is the nature of this game, and such it will always be. SE has proven they don’t deviate much from their token systems.

I guess I don't like the idea that being a crafter somehow makes me a lesser player?

Where did anyone even say that? If anything, crafters are more valued than Savage raiders—after all, they feed the raiders gear and consumables. They also feed non-crafters and other, more casual players with anything from gear to minions to housing items.

If you feel like a lesser player, that is all on you making yourself feel that way. Item level doesn’t make a player.

The ability to manage rotations amid mechanics is not a tangible metric. Most players are judged by what they wear in this game.

This is false. If you want to get into what people are judged by in terms of PvE content in this game, at least in content where gear would actually matter, it’s not always the gear. It’s usually their numbers or their utility, but there are a multitude of factors that go into determining both. Yes, gear is one of them, but their rotation holds far more importance in determining said metric over gear.

Example: I am a High Crit BiS BRD. I have the best gear currently available to my job (save the UwU weapon, but Diamond is more or less the same), but if I’m standing around spamming just Heavy Shot, not using my songs or my DoTs, and not using Refresh for my healers and Foe Requiem for my party, I am useless despite my high-end gear.

So where exactly is the fun found in fighting the same boss 30 times to get a piece of armor? Would you do the same thing in FFXV?

Fun is subjective. And while I said it’s fine for you to not enjoy battle content and prefer DoH/DoL content, there actually are some people who do enjoy farming fights over and over again to get gear, to get shinies (e.g., mounts), or just because they like the fight.

I did Sophia Ex over 200 times for her mount. And I kept going because I loved the fight, even though I could have stopped at run 99, because that was back when they first started introducing the trade-in for primal tokens to mounts (though hers was not available at the time). My best friend spammed Titan when they first started playing because they liked the fight, and story mode gives you nothing. The old Alexander raid tier is obsolete, but I enjoy getting it any time in Raid Roulette because there were floors I really enjoyed—call it nostalgia if you like.

There are a myriad of reasons why people would find repeating fights fun, whether they’re doing it for gear or for nothing at all. They vary between individuals.

But I do engage in the content. Just not to the repetition that SE wants me to. Repeating boss fights is lazy development, it doesn't matter if this trope has been around, other games don't bother with it. In Fallout, I fight the boss once and it'll drop all the gear it'll ever drop. You may have fun fighting a bosses again and again and again and again. But I do not share you in your tastes, and I feel like I shouldn't have to. These fights don't get any more exciting after the first few times.

FFXIV =/= Fallout. They are entirely different games. Comparing the two and expecting the two to be similar will only set yourself up for disappointment. The repetition is there to encourage longevity. As hollow as you believe it to be, that’s why it’s there. And it’s more or less effective.

Again, if you aren’t doing the battle content—if you don’t care about the battle content—then why are you wanting progression in your gear for your battle jobs? Your passions lie with DoH/DoL, which have their own separate gear progression system. Sure, you’ll have to run duties for Tomestones if the Tomestone mats aren’t available for you to buy off the MB (thankfully for you, they end up being relatively cheap after the first couple of weeks on most servers because people tend to flood the market with the mats), but the time investment in doing that is miniscule, and you don’t have to set foot in any content harder or more time consuming than an Expert Roulette dungeon.

As I said before, I have no qualms about a system similar to the one Vaer suggested earlier in the thread, but, as of right now, that system does not exist. If you want to progress, you will have to do it just like everyone else with the resources available. Or not at all.

So because someone likes grinding, everyone must grind? And why must the boss fights be grinded? Is that a law that must be a part of the game? Why not grind to get to the boss fights? Be forced to grind a currency to even enter the fight. Is that something you'd desire too? More grinding? We can even grant better drop rates if the fights take effort in getting to.

That is the design of this game. I’d wager to say that “grinding” is a design choice of MMOs in general. That’s how they function; if you don’t like it, then MMOs are not the genre for you.

Better drop rates come after the content has been out for a while. But they are not there Day 1 to promote longevity. I really don’t know how many times people can tell you this.

[Noodle_Trinidad]

In a word, yes. Welcome to MMOs. They are grindy by necessity because no dev team can produce content fast enough sate how quickly players devour it. Say Alphascape comes out in a month and gives everything upon being killed once. How do you purpose th devs keep people entertained for the next 7-9 months? The raid that's intended to last two full patch cycles has no relevance after one clear.

Basically, you want a single player experience in a MMO. That isn't how this genre works.

Issue with justifying it with "Its an MMO so expect grind" doesn't justify how disconnected the Pagos portion of Eureka was with the overall feedback from the Anemos portion. Yes you are right any MMO will always have a grind, its a needed factor to continue the longevity of any piece of content lest it fall into irrelevancy like most of the content in this game but on top of being a grind you have to either balance with one of 2 things. The first is the grind must give a reward which justifies the time invested so the player does not feel as if their time was wasted which when you consider Pagos is not a mark that is hit given how accessible i370 weapons have been lately. Second if the grind does not provide a reward that is worth the investment then at least make the grind one that you can find some fun in doing. This is probably the mark most devs want to hit but with the case of XIV it once again fails to hit this mark, a fun grind would be akin to Warframe or Monster Hunter where at times getting what you want might not be the easiest thing, looking at you god damn gems from MH, but the core gameplay that makes up the grind is more than enough to keep people going because its just plain fun.

So while yes an MMO must always be expected to have a grind at the very least try and keep that grind up to some standard especially if its made by a AAA company.

[Mofafafa]

i think club penguin is a good recommendation for a none grindy mmo social game.

[HyoMinPark]

Issue with justifying it with "Its an MMO so expect grind" doesn't justify how disconnected the Pagos portion of Eureka was with the overall feedback from the Anemos portion. Yes you are right any MMO will always have a grind, its a needed factor to continue the longevity of any piece of content lest it fall into irrelevancy like most of the content in this game but on top of being a grind you have to either balance with one of 2 things. The first is the grind must give a reward which justifies the time invested so the player does not feel as if their time was wasted which when you consider Pagos is not a mark that is hit given how accessible i370 weapons have been lately. Second if the grind does not provide a reward that is worth the investment then at least make the grind one that you can find some fun in doing. This is probably the mark most devs want to hit but with the case of XIV it once again fails to hit this mark, a fun grind would be akin to Warframe or Monster Hunter where at times getting what you want might not be the easiest thing, looking at you god damn gems from MH, but the core gameplay that makes up the grind is more than enough to keep people going because its just plain fun.

So while yes an MMO must always be expected to have a grind at the very least try and keep that grind up to some standard especially if its made by a AAA company.

Bourne wasn’t really talking about Eureka, though; they were talking about basic gear progression with regards to things like Tomestone gear and Savage gear. None of this was about Eureka (Anemos or Pagos), but about the progression of gear in this game with regards to individuals that do not want to raid, nor actively do battle content. Maybe you meant to post this in another thread? I’d suggest going back and catching up on the conversation, because it has nothing to do with the design of Pagos at all...

Most of the last couple of pages have been in response to a person that wants to progress their battle gear, but does not want to actively participate in battle content because they dislike battle content.

[Edax]

Bourne wasn’t really talking about Eureka, though; they were talking about basic gear progression with regards to things like Tomestone gear and Savage gear. None of this was about Eureka (Anemos or Pagos), but about the progression of gear in this game with regards to individuals that do not want to raid, nor actively do battle content. Maybe you meant to post this in another thread? I’d suggest going back and catching up on the conversation, because it has nothing to do with the design of Pagos at all...

Most of the last couple of pages have been in response to a person that wants to progress their battle gear, but does not want to actively participate in battle content because they dislike battle content.

As you said, when 4.4 drops, I'll be able to go from to i380 with crafted gear. But having been told that I absolutely don't need it and that I'm not entitled to it, does this mean I should pass up crafting this new gear for myself?

[Dualgunner]

As you said, when 4.4 drops, I'll be able to go from to i380 with crafted gear. But having been told that I absolutely don't need it and that I'm not entitled to it, does this mean I should pass up crafting this new gear for myself?

Sure does look like a fun strawman you just beat up.

[HyoMinPark]

As you said, when 4.4 drops, I'll be able to go from to i380 with crafted gear. But having been told that I absolutely don't need it and that I'm not entitled to it, does this mean I should pass up crafting this new gear for myself?

Not if you're putting in the time and effort for it. You're missing my points entirely - you get gear by putting time and effort towards getting it, not by simply wanting it.

Crafting gear? You craft it yourself, you put effort into it (or buy it with Gil, which you claim to have put effort into making).
Tomestone gear? You run duties and collect tomes to get your gear; you put time and effort towards it. And this take very little of both.
Savage gear? You cleared some of the hardest content in the game for it; you put time and effort into it.


As for the not needing it, that's just the simple truth. Item level capped gear is not necessary for completion of the content you say you do; the content just isn't intense enough to call for it. i350 is overkill for the latest Expert dungeon, for example. Savage gear is extremely overkill for anything that isn't Ultimate (you don't even need i370 to clear Savage).

And again, I question why you are putting all this time into complaining about battle gear progression after repeating that you don't care for battle content and would rather not do it. You like crafting and gathering, which is fine; there is nothing wrong with that. You have plenty of gear progression to do there as well. From the i290 gear to i320 Ala Mhigan to the new i340 gear that will be taking you into the next patch. Or even Scrip gear.

I don't understand your complaints simply because you are complaining about gear progression for content you don't even like, much less want to participate in. And inb4 "my item level has been the same for months", so have a lot of other players' item level. Item level stagnates when people reach cap; it stagnates sooner the faster they gear up, until the next tier of gear is released. And then repeat until the next tier or expansion. Such is the formula of this game; has been for 5 years.

Please go back and read my posts. I honestly feel like you didn't even bother to do so.

[RiyahArp]

eh..well the combat content in this game is a bit dull if you play long enough.

We really only have three archetypes, tank, healer, and dps, and each job is more like a control style than anything. the lack of customization and flexibility means there really isn't much variation to encounters, you just repeat them over and over with minor variances, even if you can gear jobs to the same level. Like in ffxi, ninja was a radically different tank from paladin, but war or drk are still really similar to paladin in general concept; just minor differences.

Or liek with drg in ffxi, you can go dps spec, with /war or /sam subjob, or offheal/solo spec with blu or whm. Grinding is a little more tolerable when you have some options. Like ffxi rng you could specialize in gun, crossbow, or bow, or use all three as you liked. If you got really bored, BST opened up whole new ways of playing the game.

I think the game's linear nature kind of makes grind a lot less appealing. I do a bit less of it now than i used to, and for me crafting and gathering is the alternate path. For some its pvp.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

eh..well the combat content in this game is a bit dull if you play long enough.

We really only have three archetypes, tank, healer, and dps, and each job is more like a control style than anything. the lack of customization and flexibility means there really isn't much variation to encounters, you just repeat them over and over with minor variances, even if you can gear jobs to the same level. Like in ffxi, ninja was a radically different tank from paladin, but war or drk are still really similar to paladin in general concept; just minor differences.

Or liek with drg in ffxi, you can go dps spec, with /war or /sam subjob, or offheal/solo spec with blu or whm. Grinding is a little more tolerable when you have some options. Like ffxi rng you could specialize in gun, crossbow, or bow, or use all three as you liked. If you got really bored, BST opened up whole new ways of playing the game.

I think the game's linear nature kind of makes grind a lot less appealing. I do a bit less of it now than i used to, and for me crafting and gathering is the alternate path. For some its pvp.

FFXI was also an imbalanced mess half the time. You had builds that were straight garbage—to the point people wouldn't invite you. We may meme on BLM and SAM, however neither are even close to the level of ostracization you saw in FFXI. That being said, FFXIV treats its job switching flexibility as specs. If I want to play a faster paced melee DPS than Dragoon, I can switch to Ninja. There simply isn't a need to have specs which allow Dragoon to play like Ninja or Warrior. Not to mention, that creates a balancing nightmare since you've essentially doubled the jobs. And if Tank Dragoon isn't good, well, you're not getting invited to parties. Nevertheless, they're supposed trying some variation of this in the next Eureka. So maybe it'll work well enough they keep the idea around. At least if Eureka: Mach III is even worth doing.