We Really Need To Talk About The State And Path Of FFXIV

[Nezerius]

If the content isn't significantly easier than current Savage it won't draw a much larger audience than Savage does now.

If the content is much easier than Savage it invalidates Savage as being the only way to acquire BiS while being much easier. Who cares about an i375 weapon from O8S if you can also pick one up by dungeoning? Might as well hit BiS before even starting Savage at that point.

I'm guessing you've never heard of the Mythic+ system, or the massive success it was in Legion, to the point of being considered one of the best features that had been introduced in that expansion.

First of all, a dungeon with scaling difficult would already be more accessible to players, due to the simple fact of requiring half as many players (4 instead of 8). Second, the content wouldn't be "much easier than Savage", since you wouldn't be getting the raid-level gear until higher difficulty levels, that's kind of the point of the whole scaling difficulty thing.

If someone chooses not to do Savage that's perfectly fine but they then don't need to gear up as quickly (or honestly at all for quite some time) and they certainly don't deserve the same rewards as people putting in considerably more effort.

To put it bluntly - why does anyone not doing Savage feel like they need or deserve the same ilvl without delay as someone who is actually raiding? It just strikes me as super entitled. If you want the gear then do the content. If you don't that's fine too.

Short answer: Because players find it fun to progress in an MMO.

Long answer: Because there's literally no other option of similar difficulty that allows players to obtain gear above the stuff that can be easily grinded for (ie: facerolling dungeons for tomestones, buying crafted gear, gear from Alliance raids). Mythic+ is seen as an alternative to raiding, without the hassle of organizing a group of 10-30 players. It allows players who prefer tight-knit groups, or prefer to have their playtime be much less schedule based (ie: hopping on to do a mythic+ or two) to still progress at a decent pace.
To answer your blunt question, because there's isn't any non-raid content at similar difficulty level, it's literally the only option people have. This is the raid-or-die mentality that I was talking about. Add actual options of similar difficulty (like WoW did), and I wouldn't be surprised for people to show interest in said options, despite having chosen to not do savage raids.

Did anyone argue the point that non-raid content can be challenging? Problem is, in XIV, it isn't. I agree, a Mythic+ like system would be fun, and a great change of pace especially for those who can't find seven other people to commit time to the game with, but as it is, basically all the content outside of Savage (and to a lesser extent, EX) requires very little relative technical skill.

It's a direct reply to Ilan, specifically the part where they said "You basically want that you get raid gear outside of raids which is not right. If you want it put in the effort." as if people who don't raid are somehow incapable of putting in the effort of clearing difficult non-raid content.

But I agree with Ladon here. As we're reaching the fifth anniversary of ARR, it's becoming more and more apparent that SE isn't really all that interested in shaking things up, preferring the safe content cycle that they're currently working with.

[Theodric]

If people are concerned about gear being 'devalued' then their priority should be the players selling and buying boosts for high end content. When I see someone using a weapon or title from high end content I no longer find it awe inspiring. I simply roll my eyes and wonder if they bought or sold the same boost services being advertised through the party finder. The same listings that direct people to Discord to smooth out the details instead of discussing it in the game itself.

A lot of people have also been asking for more 'tough but rewarding' content geared towards smaller groups of players. A lot of us want to raid and/or are perfectly capable of clearing high end content ourselves...but we don't ever get the opportunity to do so because of poor luck and the sheer amount of flakes that exist in the raiding community.

[Dualgunner]

If people are concerned about gear being 'devalued' then their priority should be the players selling and buying boosts for high end content. When I see someone using a weapon or title from high end content I no longer find it awe inspiring. I simply roll my eyes and wonder if they bought or sold the same boost services being advertised through the party finder. The same listings that direct people to Discord to smooth out the details instead of discussing it in the game itself.

If you're that curious if they bought it, check their FFLogs; if they did, they won't have an uploaded log.

As far as devaluing, there is an argument to be had there. However, as I've stated before, in another thread about this topic: selling runs, even for gil, is something I won't participate in. However, I won't begrudge others for making gil doing what they're good at; crafting can't be the only way to earn gil in this game, and as far as raiding is concerned, raiding anywhere within the first two months can be an expensive endeavor between potions, food, and purchased gear. For RMT, I disagree with wholeheartedly, but don't know any way to really quash that without just making it more prevalent for the attempts to quash it.

A lot of people have also been asking for more 'tough but rewarding' content geared towards smaller groups of players. A lot of us want to raid and/or are perfectly capable of clearing high end content ourselves...but we don't ever get the opportunity to do so because of poor luck and the sheer amount of flakes that exist in the raiding community.

Sort of replying to both you and Nexerius atm:

First, take in the context that, as of right now, raiding is the only high-difficulty content in the game, really. For the sake of argument, we can also assume that XIV is a lot of people's first MMO; in this specific case, it is easy to see why they would equate raiding to high-difficulty content. So when they hear "raid level gear outside of raid level content," they hear "high difficulty content gear rewarded outside of high difficulty content."

With that in mind:

If the content carries the same difficulty as savage, then yes, similar rewards should be available from it. Diadem is not the same difficulty as Savage. Eureka is not the same difficulty as Savage. Mythic+ styled content would be very fun in my opinion, and I agree fully that it would be a great way to add more gearsets to diversify one's stat build with. I also agree that one of the biggest roadblocks to getting into raiding is finding seven other people as committed as oneself.

[sexythaumaturge]

I'm sorry, but the overworld areas all look great. Sea of Clouds made my jaw drop the first time I saw it. It's true that they're largely empty. Why not move Eureka content into them somehow? So you don't just get seals from FATEs.

[Alleo]

What do you want them to do? Add more NPC's and buildings that have little to nothing to do with the world or quest's? Yes it would be pretty cool at the start but most of it would probably be forgotten rather quickly which means added stress to the servers which they already I believe mentioned they are keeping an eye on (such as one reason why they won't update the character creation).

More NPCs that do things out there: Have someone cut down some trees, have someone just sitting there and looking at the landscape or painting things. There could be a lot of small things with NPCs that could make the world feel more alive.

Animals that are not attackable or that are passive: Nearly everything wants to kill you out there..which does not make any sense because they might even take some time for us to defeat, so how are any other NPCs surviving there? Have small animals running around, maybe a cute bunny family (just use some of the pets we have) that is running around and if you are silent you might be able to watch them and if you run too loud you will scare them away. You can also have bigger herbivore animals walking around. And how awesome would it be if the ruby sea would feel like a sea full with life?

Lore/riddles: For a game that is so proud about its story and lore its kinda lacking in that part. Yes you have the sightseeing parts but those are barely there and you can now see them thanks to the bubble. So to give us more lore about these regions, why not let us find notes or books that will tell us something about the place? (Which then will become part of our own ingame liberary) This can all range from texts about the animals living there, to the landscape itself or the history of the place. To hide them you could give us riddles to solve that will get us to the place if you do it right (and yes people can look them up but thats imo no good argument against something like that).

Other hidden items: Its quite fun to search for artifacts in Rift. They are just small balls of light but if you pick them up you get another piece for a collection. If you have completed one you will get the price. This could be something that can be done in FF14 too. Have random spawned items on the map that you need to search for (and that will only spawn for you on that place) and if you collected them all per map you will get a price.

Map Quests: Have some daily or unlimited repeatable quests on the map where you help NPCs with their daily life. Gather something for them or find something missing. This could involve riddles too. At the end you could gather points per NPC or map and with them could buy some items.

All of those are just ideas of mine but imo would help greatly with making the world feel more alive and give us a reason to do it.

@OP: I agree with your post. I just feel like FF14 is nice to look at but lacks good gameplay and content..which is imo quite important for a MMO. At the same time even though we say that Glamour (and fishing) is the true endgame we also dont have a true glamour catalogue in this game either..(and no tacklebox) so we cant even go around and get all the glamour that this game has to offer..In the end it feels like they try to do things from all parts (housing, glamour, PVP, raids) but none of those really deep and great. Most of the systems are either limited or too complicated..

[Lubu_Mykono]

More NPCS with do things out there : Already done with FATES, random people in every zone etc.
Animals that are not attackable or passive: Why? Interaction is a lot better and it means you have to do something to earn that meat
Lore/Riddles: there are plenty of quests that don't give physical descriptions on where to go, just cues in the description. Already done.
Hidden Items: Resource Nodes already basically does this, maybe make it a bit harder oh yeah we have maps too...
Maps: This is just another name for Beast Tribe Dailies

[Ruinfeild]

I would like to see something kind of like WoW's mythic system. Was a lot more fun than I thought (considering I only ever go back to WoW every so often and play for like a month and get bored) and sure made everything feel new compared to the previous years. Having something like that in FFXIV would be nice and a good change of pace but to be at the same level or more than savage is up in the air.

HoH I believe was considered to be savage difficulty with 30+ but the weapon isn't the same ilevel (least I don't think).

What people seem to forget is that Yoshi-P (I need to go through the live letters again) said he doesn't want to do much with high end difficulty with only four players simply because if the healer drops, you lose where as with 8 people you have a better chance of coming back from mistakes. I wouldn't point at Rath though cause it doesn't have any sort of tank aggro or heavy mechanics you need to worry about other than dodge and stack. Trying to apply that sort of thing to something like Savage or Ultimate would probably just cause more problems.

[Alleo]

More NPCS with do things out there : Already done with FATES, random people in every zone etc.
Animals that are not attackable or passive: Why? Interaction is a lot better and it means you have to do something to earn that meat
Lore/Riddles: there are plenty of quests that don't give physical descriptions on where to go, just cues in the description. Already done.
Hidden Items: Resource Nodes already basically does this, maybe make it a bit harder oh yeah we have maps too...
Maps: This is just another name for Beast Tribe Dailies

With NPCs out there I simply meant that they are out to see. You cant do anything with them, the same with the animals. Whx? Well because going through a zone where barely any NPC or any normal animal is wandering around is just boring and does not feel like this is a living and breathing world. Again look at the ruby sea and compare what they have shown us in the benchmark and whats in the game..it does not provide more gameplay but does provide for a map that feels like its part of a world.

No there are barely any quests that give you riddles and I truly mean riddles that you can randomly find in the open world without any marker. The same with the lore. You wont be taken there by a quest, you simply will have to wander the map and find them. You could say that the lore part is a wider and worked out sightseeing one. But now if you are interested in this you can get some nice information about quite a lot of things of the world and might finally go into a small cave that you normally would completely ignore because there is nothing there.

Resource nodes are only there for the gatherers, are not random thus you will also just be in certain parts of the map. Hidden items could be all over the map and will randomly appear on it.

Yes its another beast tribe daily, that would give people something to do (if they want to) and that will give them some nice small informations about the people living there.


Again those ideas are here to make the maps feel like there is life there. If you dont care you can still ignore it and yet those that care for that would finally have a real reason to get back to the maps. I mean even WoW has something like the animals, where you sometimes even can capture some of them as pets. I just find it interesting how the one game that is proud about its story and visual looks barely have any of that on the maps itself.

[Lubu_Mykono]

With NPCs out there I simply meant that they are out to see. You cant do anything with them, the same with the animals. Whx? Well because going through a zone where barely any NPC or any normal animal is wandering around is just boring and does not feel like this is a living and breathing world. Again look at the ruby sea and compare what they have shown us in the benchmark and whats in the game..it does not provide more gameplay but does provide for a map that feels like its part of a world.

No there are barely any quests that give you riddles and I truly mean riddles that you can randomly find in the open world without any marker. The same with the lore. You wont be taken there by a quest, you simply will have to wander the map and find them. You could say that the lore part is a wider and worked out sightseeing one. But now if you are interested in this you can get some nice information about quite a lot of things of the world and might finally go into a small cave that you normally would completely ignore because there is nothing there.

Resource nodes are only there for the gatherers, are not random thus you will also just be in certain parts of the map. Hidden items could be all over the map and will randomly appear on it.

Yes its another beast tribe daily, that would give people something to do (if they want to) and that will give them some nice small informations about the people living there.


Again those ideas are here to make the maps feel like there is life there. If you dont care you can still ignore it and yet those that care for that would finally have a real reason to get back to the maps. I mean even WoW has something like the animals, where you sometimes even can capture some of them as pets. I just find it interesting how the one game that is proud about its story and visual looks barely have any of that on the maps itself.

It's a very big MMO. I think it feels pretty alive as it is. The benchmark tool isn't mean't to be an accurate reflection of the minute to minute game-play, it's used to highlight the technical capacity as the engine for a specific system. I do agree though that if they are using the tool for falsely advertising it is wrong, but there is no evidence of this anywhere.

If you like WoWs idea's then it might just be simpler to play that game. Something like riddles etc. is in essence quite pointless when you look at the resources. They would have to pay people even more to make up text, localise it, then patch it. It makes more sense to tie it to something like the major or side quests to make it worth the time involved.

Once a zone is modelled nicely and sparkled with the odd NPC, the Fates and the structural components like the buildings, ruins etc. it's left on it's own until more patch content comes that is relevant. Random riddles are not.

[Alleo]

@Lubu_Mykono: Or people can voice their ideas instead of just getting a "if you like x just play y". I mean those are not even ideas that need a whole change of the game. Just something that would make the maps better for me. Thus if you are alright with it, its fine but not everyone needs to be that way.

(And if we argue about something being pointless then big maps that we have right now are pointless too because they have no real gameplay value and are probably just big because we can fly, so maybe they should cut them down.)