Making Warrior's Butcher Block combo relevant

[Eloah]

DRK disagrees, even if it's a dps loss, the enmity produced by the aggro combo is excellent.

You do realize you just agreed with me, right?

It's not meh as in they aren't strong, Butcher's Block is still WAR's highest combo, it's that they offer nothing but enmity. Heck Royal Authority offers nothing but pure damage, but is still useful since that's PLS's highest combo.

[Zyneste]

You do realize you just agreed with me, right?

It's not meh as in they aren't strong, Butcher's Block is still WAR's highest combo, it's that they offer nothing but enmity. Heck Royal Authority offers nothing but pure damage, but is still useful since that's PLS's highest combo.

Buter's block is second place. Storm's path heals, does the more potency over time and generates 10 more gauge, so its more optimal.

Edited for clarity*

[Eloah]

Buter's block is second place. Storm's path heals, does the same potency and generates 10 more gauge, so its more optimal.

Storm's Eye and Storm's Path are both 280 potency, Butcher's Block is 300. The 20 extra potency doesn't outweigh the benefits the other two offer.

[Zyneste]

Storm's Eye and Storm's Path are both 280 potency, Butcher's Block is 300. The 20 extra potency doesn't outweigh the benefits the other two offer.

Except it does because: Every 5 combos you do you get one Fell Cleave.

Butcher's Block Combo: 160 + 210 + 300 = 670 or 223.3 per GCD. 20 Gauge.
Storm's Path: 160 + 200 + 280 = 640 or 213.3 per GCD. 30 Gauge.

Every 5 combos you gain two fell cleaves with BB. So in 5 Combos for Butcher's block you'd do: 670 * 5 + 2 * 520 (two fell cleaves.) Over the course of 17 GCDS thats 4390.

Every 5 combos you gain 3 Fell cleaves with Storms Eye. So in 5 combos youd do 640 *5 + 3* 520 (three fell cleaves,) Over the course of 18 GCDS thats 4760.

The average for BB per GCD would be 258.23 potency. (4390/17)
The average for SP per GCD would be 264.44 potency. (4760/18)

Its a 2.34% damage increase to spam Storm's path. To widen the gap further OGCD's can be used in place of Fell Cleave in spending the gauge, doing more damage in a shorter time frame.

[Garry]

Storm's Eye and Storm's Path are both 280 potency, Butcher's Block is 300. The 20 extra potency doesn't outweigh the benefits the other two offer.

What they are saying is that the extra gauge means that storm's path is the highest potency as beast gage is directly relaterable to a set number of potency. Making storms path just more damage period, and thus the emnity combo is a lower damage option.

[AppleJinx]

Currently none of the tanks want to be using their aggro combo in any fight more than once so why should warrior be any different

[whiskeybravo]

However, making the emnity combos part of a given rotation or giving them an extra feature would go a decent way to making tanking more interesting.

I disagree on the basis of job evolution. Butcher's Block (and aggro combo's in general) are needed up to a certain point in the game, until you develop your character further (aka unlock more abilities & gear) and eventually you become a "Master" and things you used early on simply aren't as useful as they used to be. Nothing inherently wrong with that.

Besides, there's nothing really all that interesting with combos to begin with. 1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2-3 ad nausea. It doesn't really matter what kind of effects are on the skills, it always boils down to a "this is da wae" rotation and that's that. It's not more or less interesting than before, just buttons you are supposed to press in some recommended order.

[Garry]

Currently none of the tanks want to be using their aggro combo in any fight more than once so why should warrior be any different

currently warriors, dont at all.

I disagree on the basis of job evolution. Butcher's Block (and aggro combo's in general) are needed up to a certain point in the game, until you develop your character further (aka unlock more abilities & gear) and eventually you become a "Master" and things you used early on simply aren't as useful as they used to be. Nothing inherently wrong with that.

Besides, there's nothing really all that interesting with combos to begin with. 1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2-3 ad nausea. It doesn't really matter what kind of effects are on the skills, it always boils down to a "this is da wae" rotation and that's that. It's not more or less interesting than before, just buttons you are supposed to press in some recommended order.

sure and thats why this change would make those skill still a useful part of play. I think it's weird that a very few select classes kind of throw thier earlier tools or parts of play in the garbage can as soon as they hit x level. Black mage is a great example where at high levels you throw more than 50% of your skill into a garbage can, and then when you have to play low level dungeons everything feels weird.

[whiskeybravo]

sure and thats why this change would make those skill still a useful part of play. I think it's weird that a very few select classes kind of throw thier earlier tools or parts of play in the garbage can as soon as they hit x level. Black mage is a great example where at high levels you throw more than 50% of your skill into a garbage can, and then when you have to play low level dungeons everything feels weird.

I think you missed the point. It doesn't really matter if you change it, only a matter of time before it becomes part of a mundane rotation of buttons you press at a particular time and you're back in the same boat of it not really being interesting.

It does bring up a point of contention, however. The part about rotations changing as you level, it doesn't bother me personally, but if it was made more consistent it might help in bringing people up to speed when they hit max level. That way you could be practicing end-game rotations while leveling instead of being thrown into a whole new way to play. I think some jobs handled this better than others, but it's worth noting I suppose.

Aggro combos, as the game is currently built, do not need to be part of your dps rotation. Part of what we have is a system of trade offs - mainly trading mitigation and aggro generation for higher DPS. This is actually why tanking is more interesting than other roles, being able to make decisions based on risk/reward that have a major impact on how your group handles an encounter.

And it's not like Butcher's is some forbidden skill. There was plenty of times I had to use it to keep hate from WHM cure bombs during both NeoExdeath and God Kefka prog. It's nice when you need it. Optimal play revolves around not using it, and there's nothing wrong with that because optimal play is in a category of it's own.

[Eloah]

Its a 2.34% damage increase to spam Storm's path. To widen the gap further OGCD's can be used in place of Fell Cleave in spending the gauge, doing more damage in a shorter time frame.

What you said/showed is not inaccurate, but it is slightly off topic. The main issue was what does Butcher's Block do besides increased enmity. On the surface it looks like it provides higher damage, but the amount offered doesn't outway the benefits of the other combo finishers.

It wasn't about the "long run" of the fight it was what each combo brings. Which is an issue that is effecting all the tanks right now. But ultimately, you agreed no harm no foul.

What they are saying is that the extra gauge means that storm's path is the highest potency as beast gage is directly relaterable to a set number of potency. Making storms path just more damage period, and thus the emnity combo is a lower damage option.

Yeah I noticed that. It was just slightly confusing cause he changed the perspective. We were looking at what each combo does, he was talking about long term. But doesn't matter, in the end everyone agreed Butcher's Block is crap.