State of the Game: Savage+ Dungeons and End Game Leves

[Miste]

You loathe the raid scene, that's fine. We get it. Now please stop spreading gibberish and misinformation about a facet of the game that you clearly don't understand nor have any involvement in.

Sadly, Sebazy, I don't think these kinds of people will stop no matter how many times people show them how their opinions make zero sense...since they haven't done the content they are constantly complaining about or played with the subset of players (raiders) they constantly complain about.

I am starting to think that what really drives certain people is simply jealousy and the reason I came to this conclusion is a lot to do with how some people insist on claiming nonsensical things about the raiding community and the game that they have no experience with, no logical thoughts about, and no facts to back up their opinions with. So they are simply baseless opinions...which makes said opinions pretty useless, and also serve no real purpose except for the one person those opinions belong to.

They are jealous that players are able to do and complete content that they haven't or don't want to put the effort into doing, so then they simply take that jealousy and seek to diminish other player's accomplishments by creating reasons why that accomplishment isn't that good or that there is a negative stigma attached to the subset of players who complete these accomplishments and claiming things like "Well, they all cheated so it's not like they legitimately earned it." even if no factual cheating was even present.

If they can spread these kinds of thoughts it also makes themselves feel better that they don't have said accomplishments since they literally talk themselves into believing that it wasn't actually hard for those players to achieve it (Savage mechanics aren't even hard! They cheated! They got carried! Enrages are the only thing hard about savage! It's all luck, not skill!) and they comfort/assure themselves that if they wanted to they could complete it/get the accomplishment too, despite not actually knowing how hard the content is personally since they have never tried it.

They also use it as an excuse why they won't do that content because of reasons like "Well, I don't want to be like them. I don't cheat!" so they can disassociate from players who actively do that content so they don't have any obligation to prove to themselves or to others that they can complete the content too. If they don't try they can't fail, so they stay in the protective safety of just snubbing the content, and the players who do that content, from the sidelines while constantly railing against it all.

[khruler]

i just want mainly 2 things a no echo toggle for party leaders or a legacy mode that sets it to true minimum ilvl with no echo. second have wondrous tales actually reward people for old content synched and minimum by modifing their chances rewarding people for doing it with people in a fair fight environment. not really into the gimmicky stuff as i find it can sometimes ruin the dungeons if certain modifiers turn out bad having the effect of the player base only doing certain ones cause they identify bad ones and thus the same challenge occurs to only be doable/recruitable plus you get into a situation where players will only require certain jobs for certain challenges most likely making it something i don't want to happen cause i deal with enough pfs requiring high i lvl requirements and no dupes and other things that discourage overall everyone being able to participate. if they can overall overcome that fine do it, but will they idk. overall the game is hard enough just most players want to play it only a certain way the path of least resistance so idk if adding modded dungeons will overall bring life cause at the end the day all rewards are meaningless how you want to spend your time though and what people consider fun will ultimately decide weather a thing lives or dies especially if it is a mmo

[KisaiTenshi]

I'm not really sure what this has to do with my response beyond further confirming your disdain for the raiding scene?

But sure, I'll entertain you. First up, my T5 clear was before (the now defunct) xivapp and I was EU 10th or thereabouts. So pretty much any hardcore replays from early 2.0 will be completely parse and trigger free. As far as more recent stuff goes. You do realise that the parse plugin typically gets broken with each release of a new raid tier right? The first day or two of world progression is usually parse free with a beta plugin taking a day or two and a full release typically coming a few days after that. So uh yeah. I'd list a few of my FC's world first videos for you, but then I doubt you actually care so meh.

Now entertain me for a moment here. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe.... just maybe Yoshida is actually absolutely fine with the current status quo? Raiders get their challenging content and parsing (with the caveat of fight club rules applying) whilst the casuals get an easy mode romp through to focus on cutscenes and storylines with little to no fear of getting pressured or called out.

This has a couple of nice bonuses for his team as well. They get a robust parsing and ranking system developed and hosted at zero cost or man hours. And with them both being 3rd party tools, they get an easy card to crack down on anyone who steps over the line or uses these to abuse their fellow players. I think it's actually a pretty clever approach.

Don't you think if SE wanted this, they would have made the leaderboards themselves? All fflogs does is sample the players cherry picked runs. This is useless data. It's like looking at report cards that were graded on a curve of 96% to 99%. Nobody will upload an embarassing run, that's why people need to hide parses because people upload parses where only they look good.

The issue, that some of you still don't get, is that you DO NOT need this stuff. Parser users "optimization" is by looking at numbers they're not supposed to see and only adjusting their strategy to maximize DPS, even if it's counter-intuitive to the content design. You insist on sucking the fun out of the content, and then complain that it's boring. Well it's boring because you did that.

All of the people who cleared the content on day one since every major patch update, and even minor patches, because the tool does wonky things until it's updated itself. But, if you had actually used ACT, you'd know about that discrepancy.

I don't use tools because they are cheat tools. I know how the FFXIV ACT plugin works because I decompiled the thing looking for what it needs administrative privileges for and found that all the FFXIV game client memory addresses and opcodes it spies on are hard coded, as well as KV tables copied from that version of the game client. That is why it partially breaks. But it's never completely broken, because the dev's haven't changed the main opcodes required. In the Lighthouse update, nearly every opcode was relocated. If the developer actually made it parse the game client data before loading, it would rarely be "broken" at all.

SE Devs: and if you want to break it more often randomize the opcodes and make every opcode packet the same size. Also the uinitialized memory causes data leaks and that is bad, pieces of the server code are being sent to the game client in certain packets.

[DamianFatale]

Why not just make parsing only allowed during Ultimate content?

[Sigma-Astra]

I don't use tools because they are cheat tools.

Welp, better stop using the internet and forums then, because those are tools meant to inform and help people understand more clearly what they do not. You're breaking your own rules and cheating yourself as we speak.

[KaivaC]

Welp, better stop using the internet and forums then, because those are tools meant to inform and help people understand more clearly what they do not. You're breaking your own rules and cheating yourself as we speak.

I'm starting to understand that it's pointless talking to Kisai. There have been quite a few questions posed to them, and they ignore them for whatever reason. Let's just celebrate the fact that the CMs are going to forward the idea up and hope that the devs seriously consider it. This would be very fun to get into, to be honest.

[Tsumdere]

The issue, that some of you still don't get, is that you DO NOT need this stuff. Parser users "optimization" is by looking at numbers they're not supposed to see and only adjusting their strategy to maximize DPS, even if it's counter-intuitive to the content design. You insist on sucking the fun out of the content, and then complain that it's boring. Well it's boring because you did that.

You can see the numbers. It's called float damage and it's in game. Even in game, they reward you for hitting bigger numbers by making crits and direct hits larger text. Although, you wouldn't know that because you don't DPS.The same text is written in the battlelog in game. If someone wanted to, they could calculate their damage using the battlelogs, although it would take far more time.

Besides, you can only speak for yourself. I have had more fun analyzing my numbers and figuring out what does better during my dozens of Byakko EX runs. Way more fun than doing the same thing over and over the exact same way. Improving myself and being a boon to my team is fun to me. Clearly it is not to you.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Playing as intended is how the content is designed, the developers make the content so those at the middle of the bell curve can clear it, not those who cheat their way through content.

This is not the only game where the players who think they're pro's make use of unauthorized tools, and are thus only playing at that level because of said tools. You'd not know if that tank or healer was doing any DPS at all without it. You'd only notice that it takes a few seconds longer on content that you're overgeared for already. There is no content in the game that calls for "optimization" to the level that you use the parser for. Thus it's only used to cheat.

If content can be cleared without tanks using tank stance and healers barely healing, what purpose does it serve for them to purposely gimp themselves? Forget parsers, the tooltip itself outlines tanks incur a 20% penalty on their damage. Therefore, explain how this benefits the party when nothing hits hard enough to warrant the trade off for a higher defense. This is what you continuously ignore. People aren't playing "as intended" because there is literally no purpose. A tank sitting in tank stance is a complete liability to the party. Harsh but accurate. Now if content hit hard enough where tanks simply couldn't mitigate through everything, you would see them rotate. The reason we don't isn't because of parsers, it's because the devs designed content that simply doesn't necessitate it.

Since we all know you don't do Savage, I will give you a perfect example of this. People skip the Ghost mechanic in o5s because they found if a Warrior, Ninja or Red Mage goes in the tank ghost, they can blow their oGCDs, thereby letting the remaining seven players DPS the boss faster. Not only is that a significant increase in raid DPS, neither tank has to spend any cooldowns nor will players take damage if they happen to exit faster. In this scenario, raiders determined a method that offers superior, damage, mitigation and require less healing. According you, this is cheating because we aren't doing content as intended.

I would ask if you see how illogical your stance is. Unfortunately, you likely never will.

That content is laughably easy, precisely because you're overgeared for it. That is the case for all MSQ content post-50, that is simply how you play JRPG games.

That is precisely the issue. Here we have a brand new dungeon and I able to pull trains of mobs while taking virtually zero damage. A parse isn't making the dungeon laughable, it's absurdly low tuning is. And while, yes, my tanks are overgeared, my healers aren't. I barely touched anything more than Assize on a tank with gear no higher than i350. People often assume people only do mass pulls for speed runs. Many tanks pull the whole room to feel like actual tanks. If I did "as the devs intended;" pulling no more than one pack at a time. The healer could literally do /sit. They are 100% useless. Furthermore, I don't need a parse to determine if players aren't performing beyond the bare minimum. If the healers are standing around, you know they aren't DPSing. Likewise, if DPS' MP/TP barely move, you instantly know they aren't aoe-ing. All ACT does is reveal the exact numbers. I already know they aren't contributing.

And it isn't a few seconds either. People like you love to claim healer DPS barely matters. I tested it with a friend the other time. One run she played normally; DPSing aggressively. In the other, her only damage came from Earthly Star. In both parties the DPS contribution was approximately the same yet the latter run took over six minutes longer. That lack of healer DPS accounted for a full third of the run. Why would we play "as intended" in this scenario? The exact same goal was accomplished except one run took less time and the healer wasn't bored out of her skull. If the developers want healers to heal more often, make content hurt. You keep prattling on about parsers. Okay. Go ahead. Explain to the class how an absence of parsers make this content harder.

They don't.

The fact that you use a parser for anything, means you're incapable of judging that information yourself. Your obsession with minmaxing DPS on non-DPS roles, where the developers do not take ANY DPS from healers into account in designing the content, and is certainly not needed when you've overgeared the content, is why it's boring and easy. It's a toxic attitude to have, to tell players to play the game in a way it is not designed for, because it helps your parses. Like who gives a care about parses really?

How about people wanting to improve in lieu of performing at the barest minimum? Or players who aren't interested in carrying other players unwilling to put in any effort. In fact, I have a perfect example of "toxicity". Back when Shinryu came out, we had a Machinist complaining endlessly about not skipping Aerial Blast due to low DPS. In particular, he kept blaming the Monk. What was the damage?

DRG/BRD both above 5,000
MNK 4,000ish
MCH: 3,600

That MNK was wearing i320 crafted gear while the MCH was in various bits of i330 and i340. Evidently, they weren't using a parser otherwise they would have seen their poor performance is what actually hindered our progression. Funny how people can be jerks without a parse, hmm?

So these parser raider players who are a minority in the game, ask for harder content, and yet don't even play the content like it was designed. I'm not telling you to play content in an inefficient way, but you are asking for changes to the game that will not be in any way hard because of your parser usage.

You have yet to explain how a parse makes content easier. Midas Savage is widely considered one of the most difficult raiders released yet parsers existed. And so did FFlogs. The Vault, at release, is another highly acclaimed dungeon due to its difficulty yet parsers existed. How is it, if parsers make everything so easy, people praise older content? Heaven on High floors 81+ are hard not because I may or may not have a parse running. It's because the mobs can actually kill you.

I'm still waiting for someone to prove they can clear new content legitimately. That's not an absurd request.

I'll bite.

• Nidhogg EX
• Sophia EX
• Creator Savage (9-11)
• Deltascape Savage (1-3)
• Sigmascape Savage (5-7)
• All 24 mans
• All dungeon content

And I've progged Ultimate without ACT on. See, ACT isn't updated when new content releases. Therefore, all raiders clearing in the first week or so typically have no access to it. My complaints about Alte Roite Savage came long before I had a parse running. Why? Because he died in less than a single lock out; some groups killed him in literally one pull.

No ACT or FFlogs, and yet most raiders consider Alte Roite a complete laughing stock with no business being labeled Savage tier.

So now I ask you, Miss Kisai, all knowing content extraordinaire. What content have you cleared?

[KisaiTenshi]

You can see the numbers. It's called float damage and it's in game. Even in game, they reward you for hitting bigger numbers by making crits and direct hits larger text. Although, you wouldn't know that because you don't DPS.The same text is written in the battlelog in game. If someone wanted to, they could calculate their damage using the battlelogs, although it would take far more time.

Besides, you can only speak for yourself. I have had more fun analyzing my numbers and figuring out what does better during my dozens of Byakko EX runs. Way more fun than doing the same thing over and over the exact same way. Improving myself and being a boon to my team is fun to me. Clearly it is not to you.

Nonsense. The flying text (that's what the developers called it in one interview) can not be attributed to any specific player because the game updates those on ticks. If you were recording your play with video and had the battle log visible, maybe, you could attribute it to the correct player. But that is not what the parser reads. The act plug developer opted not to read the actual combat log because they don't understand 6 languages to make it work in all versions of the client. Besides that the effect damage is only stored in the animation data, and never shown in the battle log.

Players do not see the belligerent's real HP unless they've turned that on in the parser, or are reading the packet data in some other means. It's never displayed in the game client, but it is used by tools to determine dps since it needs to take into account the belligerents status effects and the players status effects and the pets, and their status effects. The point here still being you don't need to know any of this to play the content.

The people asking for a M+ mode don't even play the content like it's designed now, and complain that it's boring. They use tools to suck the fun out of the content. That is why it's boring. If said content is so easy, then the parser raiders should have no problem turning their tools off and playing any piece of content at any difficultly level. Yet, that's not what is happening is it? That's not what fflogs tracks. Parser raiders are so concerned about parsing, high, that they don't realize they've willingly thrown themselves off the difficulty bell curve and their data is useless for tuning the game.

M+ basically demands that the monster AI stop being dumb. Maybe at +1 to +3 the mobs simply are DPS sponges, but after that they have their own tanks and healers, and at +10 your job crystal is turned off, thus demanding a new strategy. They can't do that right now because turning off the job crystal results in having no skills over level 50, and certain jobs can't be played without their crystal.

The developers should think about how to make this kind of thing fun before thinking about what kind of rewards to offer from it. Because there really is no point in making content just to farm achievements.

[KaivaC]

You know what would be really nice? If Kisai could actually prove these fallacies. You still haven't answered why exactly you have an issue with raiders, or even shown an attempt to actually be credible with your complaints. How about giving it a try for once, eh? Who knows, might actually revive your dead YouTube channel.