State of the Game: Savage+ Dungeons and End Game Leves

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Yes, how dare the raid community get a piece of content that was designed to be played without tools and was cheated anyway. Those advocating for parsers always hurt their own cause.

The level of reach here is so extraordinary, you didn't simply dislocate your shoulder, you torn your whole arm off.

First and foremost, what does any of your incoherent rant have to do with damage sponges? Do you even know what that term means because it certainly doesn't appear so. Ironically, both these quotes clearly demonstrates your profound degree of ignorance on a subject you insist on butting your nose into. You know why I advocate avoiding tank stance outside prog? There is literally no purpose to it. If you actually read the very post you quoted, I specifically explain why that is the "meta." Damage is all that matters in this game. If the devs want us to play differently, make tank stance worthwhile. What they intended is completely irrelevant if the actual design doesn't require it. Sitting in tank stance is fundamentally useless. You aren't helping the healers nor are you making it easier on the raid. You're doing the precise opposite as now the DPS have to compensate for that 3,000+ DPS that disappears. Playing as intended wouldn't magically make Savage any more challenging, it'd simply make it boring.

And you know why this is the meta? Because most content has no teeth. Case in point, HyoMin and I spammed Swallow's Compass where she purposely did not touch a single DPS ability. Not only was she bored out of her mind because she literally stood there doing nothing, I barely took any damage. Here we have a healer "doing what the developers intended" and she's bored. Swallow's Compass didn't suddenly become harder. It became even easier. On subsequent runs, the incoming damage was so pitiful, Excog didn't break. That means in a pack of six mobs, I never once dropped below 50%. And I was pulling in DPS stance. That is how piss easy dungeons are. Want another example? Kefka Normal mode. The entire party except the DRK and I (WAR) die. We duo'd him from 18% to 5%. Two tanks with no healers did 13% on their own. That's how laughable he is. Only one of them had i370 gear, by the way.

So, please, explain how parsers would make this challenging. Maybe you prefer to stand around deciding what to cast for twenty seconds but a good number of healers find that mind numbingly boring.

Parsers are not the same thing as triggers. Neither magically do mechanics for me. Those Goal triggers? Yeah, I still have to call my position and actually go there or Titan doesn't wake. I also like how you conveniently ignore Yoshida not only watches World First prog on spam but invited the JP team to their office. If they considered it cheating, they certainly have a funny way of showing it.

Nobody can have fluff skills on their bars because, oh geez, might cause a loss in DPS s/. Nobody is allowed to do anything other than the raider meta, because omg loss of DPS s/.

Because nothing else matters in this game. Tank stance isn't necessary for any content outside of progression, healers can literally take a tank up from 1 to 70,000 in three seconds and nothing hits remotely harder or fast enough to warrant consistent healing. The sheer irony is you're so blinded by your own bias, you cannot see many raiders want those mechanics to matter more. I want higher outgoing damage and more rapid style mechanics so healers can't be "green DPS" as you fancy. They DPS not because of "raider meta," but due to the fact this game is so damn easy, they have nothing better to do with their time.

And funny you mention Ninja. The devs nerfed because raiders found a better rotation. How is this possible if parsers are widely inaccurate and the devs know better? And before you mention "mistakes happen." This is the second time they had to adjust Ninja due to raiders finding better alternatives. I'll go you one better. The reason Infuriate is now locked until you pull and Hide resets your Mudras are because the devs never thought people would precast Infuriate or Huton before pulling. Once again, raiders found a better solution despite, you know, using an inaccurate tool.

All this aside, neither of those quotes are remotely on topic nor do they describe a damage sponge. So... good job there.

[Remedi]

Tbh I think the infuriate and hide change were more for QoL than nerfing rotations outright, I mean there were feedbacks about how it was annoying the need to wait for each pull, it's why I expect something to happen to aetherflow sooner or later.


But really the gaol trigger is not such a black and white problem, I mean I could say that the timing on it is on the unfair side to the point u are forced on relying on external help and since once you reach ultima you want to be progging ultima and not titan I don't fault ppl for using help if the dev impose this kind of mechanic.
Now perhaps making so that the markers pop before the knockback would alleviate the problem or maybe make the mechanic too trivial honestly I don't have an answer

[KaivaC]

I'd like to see more challenging content, but we're not going to get content like that. Especially when players who use unauthorized tools are making the demands for it.

The irony in this is that you say this, but you don't do Savage.

Yet, when individuals such as Bourne and others, including the OP who has generated interest within and for the community, do start theorycrafting ideas and brainstorming with the community, you tend to be the first to shoot them down. Now, the comment that I am quoting from you is interesting, because you claim that you want to see more challenging content, but just like with the current Savage, which from what I understand has been easier and more accessible than Alex from what I understand, but you will not do it for...unstated reasons? I dunno...I don't recall you ever saying why you will not jump into Sav - oohhh...wait...."cheating". With big air quotes.

Mayhaps you should actually do said content first before saying such things as 'you want to see more challenging content", when said challenging content exists for players who are not, by nature, raiders. And once again, I should submit that if you aren't going to contribute in a meaningful way that encourages and adds to the suggestions that OP is making, why are you constantly trying to shoot down the ideas made therein? Will you deflect to the old tired 'if you don't have anything to add so don't post' cliche, or will you actually answer one of my questions this time? Because I haven't seen a solid answer to anything that I have asked you yet. To anything from the last few threads I have directly spoken to you on.

edit: Oh...after typing this, I realize that I just had an epiphany! I remember that you often say that raiders should be able to do the content without 'cheat tools'. That it should be 'easy to do with cheating'. Almost as if you can do Savage and Ultimate yourself without said tools, with no problems. I realize that more often than not, when directly approached about doing said content, you dodge answering directly...as if it is beneath you. Why...that almost sounds like elitism right there, dunnit? Kisai, are you elitist? Oohhhhh....we should totally get our own club going, because I soooo miss being an elitist. What do you say? The Kaiva/Kisai Elitist Squad? KaivaSai? Kiva? Kiva! Yeah! /sarcasm

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Tbh I think the infuriate and hide change were more for QoL than nerfing rotations outright, I mean there were feedbacks about how it was annoying the need to wait for each pull, it's why I expect something to happen to aetherflow sooner or later.

But really the gaol trigger is not such a black and white problem, I mean I could say that the timing on it is on the unfair side to the point u are forced on relying on external help and since once you reach ultima you want to be progging ultima and not titan I don't fault ppl for using help if the dev impose this kind of mechanic.
Now perhaps making so that the markers pop before the knockback would alleviate the problem or maybe make the mechanic too trivial honestly I don't have an answer

I believe it's a little of both. I'd have to dig around for it, but the devs were legitimately surprised Ninjas precast Huton and people were expected to give them a 22-25 second countdown. They expected you'd do it after pulling.

As for the Gaol triggers. I, personally, haven't used them, however there's a good discussion about it from Layla Bell. Basically, he explains why triggers have become more popular. The issues with Gaols is how much you're expected to react towards in the span of three seconds while dealing with their awful server tick system. We had an instance just the other night where someone got fettered, thus locked into place, yet the game said "nope" and Landslide punted them across the map. All they need to do is add another second or two and that issue goes away.

[Ceasaria]

I agree concerning Titan.
For me, it's maybe the worse mecanics design in this game.
I could even say stupidly designed.

-Firstly, you need to check behind you where the free space is and then adjust your position with that.
Pray to not be a Lalafell among Rogaedyn (yeah because you can't even see your character properly regardless of
what you have), because 1-2 yalm too far and it's dead.
- Secondly, you are pushed to the free space. If you are not in it, you have to rely on tick server to hope survive on this.
- Thirdly, you have to differentiate you character to others to be able to check if you have a mark or not. During this time, go away from the free space or you will die because of the last goal falling.
- Fourthly, call it or macro it. After that, the 3 players with mark go to their position (among three) by avoiding landslide.
- Fifthly, pray for a successful chain.
The mark near the goal can be in trouble if landslide is not well placed, because he will not have time to place himself near the goal. The mark near Titan could fail even if the AOE from his goal is touching Titan.

There is an incredible amount of things to do, to think/react with so few seconds and so many ways of wipe on this.
But, the worse is everything in this entire mecanic have no margin of error or what we can call it "limit of the game".
As a healer, I like to play with the limits but there you can't because you are already at the limit.
From the position for the push, to the mark thing, and to the positioning for the explosions.
It's ridiculous.

I don't call for a nerf, but I call for a rectification/reconsideration of this mecanic.
It's not normal that a majority of group wipe more on Titan than on Ultima...

[Remedi]

I believe it's a little of both. I'd have to dig around for it, but the devs were legitimately surprised Ninjas precast Huton and people were expected to give them a 22-25 second countdown. They expected you'd do it after pulling.

As for the Gaol triggers. I, personally, haven't used them, however there's a good discussion about it from Layla Bell. Basically, he explains why triggers have become more popular. The issues with Gaols is how much you're expected to react towards in the span of three seconds while dealing with their awful server tick system. We had an instance just the other night where someone got fettered, thus locked into place, yet the game said "nope" and Landslide punted them across the map. All they need to do is add another second or two and that issue goes away.

I was idd thinking about what he said, I agree with him, that mechanic is what I would call unfair especially since you either do it or you wipe. I guess they wanted to go with something very precise and tight to do but this is at the limit of huiman and from what you say the engine capacity.
We could say that the megaflare dive had a similar problem with the towers, however YOLO was sufficent to fix the problem, but ye they should be more mindful of these episodes, I might add the nael RP mechanic, but that was quite easy to fix and partly they learned from the mistake (sounds cues in tsukuyomi and garuda jumps for example).
Actually I think they should add sounds cues or even visual cues everywhere

[KageTokage]

It would be nice if leves had a decent use for max level players.

Lately, I just burn them for the RNG gods in hopes of spawning Lampalagua or Wulgaru.

[KisaiTenshi]

Damage is all that matters in this game. If the devs want us to play differently, make tank stance worthwhile. What they intended is completely irrelevant if the actual design doesn't require it. Sitting in tank stance is fundamentally useless. You aren't helping the healers nor are you making it easier on the raid. You're doing the precise opposite as now the DPS have to compensate for that 3,000+ DPS that disappears. Playing as intended wouldn't magically make Savage any more challenging, it'd simply make it boring.

Playing as intended is how the content is designed, the developers make the content so those at the middle of the bell curve can clear it, not those who cheat their way through content.

This is not the only game where the players who think they're pro's make use of unauthorized tools, and are thus only playing at that level because of said tools. You'd not know if that tank or healer was doing any DPS at all without it. You'd only notice that it takes a few seconds longer on content that you're overgeared for already. There is no content in the game that calls for "optimization" to the level that you use the parser for. Thus it's only used to cheat.

And you know why this is the meta? Because most content has no teeth. Case in point, HyoMin and I spammed Swallow's Compass where she purposely did not touch a single DPS ability. Not only was she bored out of her mind because she literally stood there doing nothing, I barely took any damage. Here we have a healer "doing what the developers intended" and she's bored. Swallow's Compass didn't suddenly become harder. It became even easier. On subsequent runs, the incoming damage was so pitiful, Excog didn't break. That means in a pack of six mobs, I never once dropped below 50%. And I was pulling in DPS stance. That is how piss easy dungeons are. Want another example? Kefka Normal mode. The entire party except the DRK and I (WAR) die. We duo'd him from 18% to 5%. Two tanks with no healers did 13% on their own. That's how laughable he is. Only one of them had i370 gear, by the way.

That content is laughably easy, precisely because you're overgeared for it. That is the case for all MSQ content post-50, that is simply how you play JRPG games.

This is how you play a JRPG:
1) Fight monsters, get money, level up
2) Use money to buy better gear, so you spend less on healing items/inn's

You can either spend hours grinding for exp or money to buy better gear, and in the process content becomes easier. Every JRPG is played that way, how much time you want to spend grinding, is up to you. If you want all content to be a push over, you make sure you're always two levels above the next boss area. I was playing Seiken Densetsu 3, the other day, a game that increases the levels of the monsters as you level, and got stuck at the first boss because, gee I opted to not grind through anything, and I picked the two functionally worst characters to DPS with, the magic user who has no magic and the cleric who has no magic at that point. There was no better gear to get, so the only option to get past this boss was to go back and grind a bit. I didn't watch any videos on the game, I didn't read any walkthroughs, that is the first time I played the game. So I enjoyed figuring out a strategy that worked for that boss, even if it meant trying it three times.

That is how I approach all RPG games. I'd rather fail and rethink the strategy than to resort to information I did not figure out myself, as that's cheating. All JRPG games play by the same basic rule that until you can kill all encounters without them getting a hit on you, you're not ready for the next area. MMORPG's play by the same rule, but because of a concept called power-leveling, by partying with high leveled characters, it's entirely possible to drag a newbie into the high level content before they learn how to do the content. And unlike a single player RPG, MMORPG's have caps for levels and gear, so you can hit a plateau where you can't get any more powerful, thus you need to rely on strategy, not simply muscling through it.

So, please, explain how parsers would make this challenging. Maybe you prefer to stand around deciding what to cast for twenty seconds but a good number of healers find that mind numbingly boring.

Parsers are not the same thing as triggers. Neither magically do mechanics for me.

You seem to have this obsession, or delusion that I'm conflating ACT with Botting. I know what all the different tools do, I've played MMORPG's since UO. There will always be people who use tools, because they feel that the developers made content too hard or complicated. That is the excuse you and other parser users keep using. "The devs decided in their wisdom to not provide a dps meter, so I use this tool for a personal dps meter", when you and others really mean "I use this tool because I'm relying on a third party leaderboard to tell me how godlike I am."

The fact that you use a parser for anything, means you're incapable of judging that information yourself. Your obsession with minmaxing DPS on non-DPS roles, where the developers do not take ANY DPS from healers into account in designing the content, and is certainly not needed when you've overgeared the content, is why it's boring and easy. It's a toxic attitude to have, to tell players to play the game in a way it is not designed for, because it helps your parses. Like who gives a care about parses really?

So these parser raider players who are a minority in the game, ask for harder content, and yet don't even play the content like it was designed. I'm not telling you to play content in an inefficient way, but you are asking for changes to the game that will not be in any way hard because of your parser usage.

[KaldeaSahaline]

It might be that CM were aimed at a specific playerbase, but then why they changed it in wod and then in legion and now in BFA nothing changed?

It means that partecipation was lower than expected it's stupid to think that a 1% variance from bronze to gold is not something blizzard won't consider about. some dungeons had 45 mins to be completed for bronze and with a weekly quest on it to boot to be a carrot.

As for OW. I'm sorry but It's a terrible blizzard game and it's a fact, it can be named best selling game ever, game of the unverse it'll remain a terrible blizzard game and anything you say about it wrong.

Diablo 3 was fastest best selling game when it came out, didn't meant it was any good btw, everyone knows the problem of D3 launch and how the economy of that game was.

You think I'm biased about it? Plenty of ppl have analyzed recent blizzard trend and finding that blizzard has abandoned quality for money making. When you take SC1-Brood war, WC2, WC3-TFT and SC2 even in the crippled state it was released and you compare it to what OW offer I'm afraid you see the problem. You may like OW and that's your opinion, but it remains from their own ammission a game that was made by the salvaged by the rmains of the failed titan project and sold with nothing that makes blizzard game great aside art-style.

What's worse is that they've shown they can create a story mode with coop campaign for OW and what they do? It's closed off to events. Is it correct I ask you? No it isn't, many ppl are finding this unaccpetable and I do too. Frankly it's not evolution it's a deevolution. That company has changed for the worse and what's worse it doesn't matter what they do They'll sell millions.
Look at the state that the new squish system released in on wow after months of PTR and Beta that is not acceptable do they need another 10 years like they needed to fix an expansion launch? How many years they need till they'll start not needing to nerf every raid boss every 2 weeks? I blame SE too on this, but I'm worse on blizzard because of how long they've been in the sector.

I'm afraid that I follow blizzard too closely to not unsee the problems at the same levels you are showing me. I've been a consumer of those games for the better part of my life and I'm afraid it's been going badly in recent years with it becoming worse and worse.

You are free of having your opinion, but I'm afraid I really can't see the world as you see it, actually you confirm me that they can do pretty much whatever they want ppl won't care

I just spent a good 20 minutes responding to this drivel, but lost the post so rather than redo it I'll just tldr it for you.

I'm fine with whatever opinion you have, and we can agree to disagree to let it end, but your post further confirms your irrational bias and is riddled with misinformation.

Please leave the thread if you're going to keep being rude. This may be the WoW feature you would want Yoshi-P to steal from WoW, but if this is the kind of attitude you present it with, of course there is going to be push back. You and Bourne always turn threads about how to make the game better into "make everything a DPS sponge, only numbers matter, story doesn't, please yoshi-p make all content only completable by 0.1% of the player base."

Same deal as above - I had a beautifully written dismantling of your post written out, but I lost it.

Tldr - Calling analysis that is riddled with bias and misinformation juvenile is not rude, no matter how much you think so.

I already refuted your "DPS sponge" example with 3 links of content designs and you ignored it (twice now).

Your gross exaggerations lend you absolutely no credibility and the "likes" metric provided to us by SE further proves my point that in fact, more posters would prefer that you leave, rather than I do.

[Remedi]

Blizzard tends to change everything, frequently... This is an exceptionally common premise that's been consistent for years now. At the end of the day - we're both speculating. We can cite examples/insight to bolster our argument, but there's no real way to determine who is correct. We can agree to disagree and leave it at that.

True thye like to change, but since I've done MOP CMs and heard ppl opinions on them, that + how the rework happened in wod + low partciepation really points out at blizzard not considering them a success all the more if you consider that mythic+ have got no real changes in BFA exepct some minor fleshing out and a seasonal affix.

Also refrain to quote me from now on if you have the need to insult me, I honestly don't have the time and patiente to deal with blizzard fanboys anymore, especially today when blizzard's writing have touched a new low