Don't ask, don't tell - Relationship Thought Experiment

[RiyahArp]

1. This only works if you are ok with it being in-game and in text only. Never being able to call the person you like or hear them on discord is a large burden. No real life visits, no video chats. Text or nothing.
2. Not every female avatar is by someone who wants to be a woman in an eternal bond relationship, or to be treated as a woman in general.
3. You are asking for people to enter into unconsummatable love. That has its own pain, and you have to be okay with sort of a half-love; knowing it can never go beyond a certain step.
4. People don't view their avatars or avatars in general as characters, but as themselves.

If you are ok with that, it can work. It's kind of not something a lot of people choose.

[MoroMurasaki]

That's possible.
But then it speaks to sexism and male "entitlement".
Because then the idea is that every female has to be a "potential hook up" or they have no value.
For example, if you only cared about making friends, gender is irrelevant for the most part.

The only reason gender matters is if you want to form a "more than friends" relationship.
And if that's the case, you can literally just ask the persons gender.

Where are you getting this crap? Male entitlement? How does not wanting to enter into what some players view as a semblance of a real relationship with a person from a gender they're not attracted to equate to some kind of entitlement? This is insane.

Where does anyone imply women who aren't potential hook ups don't have value? Seriously are you even reading the same things everyone else is?

1. This only works if you are ok with it being in-game and in text only. Never being able to call the person you like or hear them on discord is a large burden. No real life visits, no video chats. Text or nothing.
2. Not every female avatar is by someone who wants to be a woman in an eternal bond relationship, or to be treated as a woman in general.
3. You are asking for people to enter into unconsummatable love. That has its own pain, and you have to be okay with sort of a half-love; knowing it can never go beyond a certain step.

Very much agreed. This is a good summary of the caution I suggested in my original post here.

[Azurymber]

They're both problematic. The issue in that example is not being honest about your gender, the issue in the one you provided is not being honest about your age and occupation. They're all wrong. None of them are less wrong. Lying or misrepresenting yourself is never okay.

As to the reason - I don't know. The girl who did it to me said she was scared to come out as a lesbian and things just got out of hand. I'm not in these peoples heads.

Sure. But this post only focusing on gender and not the other 100 things people can lie about is what suggests it is transphobic or sexist.
The idea here isn't that people get upset over dishonesty.
It's that people get upset over gender specifically.

It would be different if the post was discussing how people lie about a multitude of things in online relationships.
But that isn't what it did. It focuses specifically on men "lying" about being girls.

As for your relationship, if the person introduced themselves as a guy, and seemed like a guy, there's probably a good chance that they weren't wholly cisgender, or they weren't sure how they identified. Again, the key issue there should be the dishonesty. Gender shouldn't be emphasized.

[Paladinleeds]

Where does anyone imply women who aren't potential hook ups don't have value? Seriously are you even reading the same things everyone else is?

I am considered one of the people in the premise that the OP is putting forward. But for those wondering why I'm a straight bloke playing a female character, it's simple. Glamour options IMO are better on female (give me equal glamour options on males, and I'll happily buy a fantasia and go back to Roebro). But, I'm honest about my gender, and if I sense that they're getting invested in that way, I will let them know that I am a bloke. I'm not trying to scam people or extort them out of gil. I just find the glamour options better on females. And while for EB I don't feel comfortable marrying an IRL male (hypocritical I know, given I play a female character), it's not because of wanting anything outside the game (heck, my last EB partner which recently fell apart doesn't date men at all, that didn't bother me, wasn't expecting anything out of it). That being said, I will always be upfront about this.

But truth be told, unless it's an IRL friend, I aren't having another EB ceremony most likely. I didn't use the ring anyway.

[Gemina]

As usual, I am here to play the game. I don't view FFXIV as a dating site.

In all honesty, even if I was open to it, I am like the worst person to get into a relationship with. I am fine and dandy outside of one, and totally functionable. In one though, I am a beast, and I will siphon all of your emotional energy leaving a husk of your former self. How about I just heal for you? That would be best ^^

[Azurymber]

Where are you getting this crap? Male entitlement? How does not wanting to enter into what some players view as a semblance of a real relationship with a person from a gender they're not attracted to equate to some kind of entitlement? This is insane.

Where does anyone imply women who aren't potential hook ups don't have value? Seriously are you even reading the same things everyone else is?

The only reason to focus on gender instead of general dishonesty is if the issue is with gender specifically.
People lie about everything online (e.g. IRL relationship status, occupation, age, appearance, education, wealth, etc)
Focusing only on gender suggests that there is a specific issue with people lying about gender (more so than other issues)

If you meet someone in game, their gender doesn't matter, unless you expect something more than a friendship with them. (this is entitlement)
If you start dating someone and they lie about their gender, then the issue is Dishonesty, and not gender. (if you emphasize gender, this is transphobia)

This entire thread is about guys "hyper investing" in people they -think- are girls, only to get broken hearted when they find out their fantasy isn't real. This is sexism and entitlement. The idea of investing in a girl and then being disappointed at not getting what you want/imagined.

[MoroMurasaki]

Sure. But this post only focusing on gender and not the other 100 things people can lie about is what suggests it is transphobic or sexist.
The idea here isn't that people get upset over dishonesty.
It's that people get upset over gender specifically.

It would be different if the post was discussing how people lie about a multitude of things in online relationships.
But that isn't what it did. It focuses specifically on men "lying" about being girls.

As for your relationship, if the person introduced themselves as a guy, and seemed like a guy, there's probably a good chance that they weren't wholly cisgender, or they weren't sure how they identified. Again, the key issue there should be the dishonesty. Gender shouldn't be emphasized.

I could get over someone being a different age, socioeconomic status, race... like pretty much anything different than what I expected them to be based on what they had told me online. Lies are crappy but I often give people second chances. The problem with lying about gender specifically in the context of a relationship is that many people are attracted almost exclusively to one gender or the other, like in my case. Try as I might I couldn't magically turn myself gay because for many people their sexuality is inflexible.

I can't believe I have to explain this...

If you start dating someone and they lie about their gender, then the issue is Dishonesty, and not gender. (if you emphasize gender, this is transphobia)

No it isn't, because lying about your gender in a video game doesn't make you trans.

[RiyahArp]

Why would a straight male pretend to be a female character to form a long-term-relationship with another male online?
If a guy is straight, they aren't going to want to date a guy

There was a term i read one time, called love-shy. The definition by the person that I read was idiosyncratic, but he defined it as "a guy who acts like a woman when it comes to romance." I have to use gendered language here so please dont tear me down over it.

Think about what it means to be a guy in a relationship, and what their role is. Things like active, emotionally balanced/stoic/reserved, decisive, pursuer instead of pursued, focus on outward life, provider-centric, etc. I know you want to debate this, but just take it for the sake of argument.

Now imagine if you are a guy who is a guy, but can't/doesn't/is bad at that particular role. You are emotionally intimate and giving instead, you liek being pursued and valued instead of pursuing and valuing, you are passive instead of active, etc. These things aren't technically the male role, and they aren't really that valued in normal romance. Again I know people will debate this, but im putting it out. This guy might actually find himself fitting the role of the woman, but there aren't really any women who would value this. Because you look for the male role as much the package. If you outgirl the girl, it gets a bit weird. I mean, would you be attracted to a guy who has more stuffed animals than you do?

So I think you get what you describe because of this. There was a manga that actually had a term for it, but I can't remember it or the term.

[Magic-Mal]

That's possible.
But then it speaks to sexism and male "entitlement".
Because then the idea is that every female has to be a "potential hook up" or they have no value.
For example, if you only cared about making friends, gender is irrelevant for the most part.

The only reason gender matters is if you want to form a "more than friends" relationship.
And if that's the case, you can literally just ask the persons gender.

Here's the thing about all of this.. I get what you're saying and agree but I think you're taking it a bit far or what the OP said the wrong way.

I actually agree with the thought that many guys out there seem to require the player to be female IRL just to be "just friends" and to me, it definitely just shows that there must be some type of secondary desire they want(Real life relationship or falling in love). In other words, confirming that a person is a real female gives the pass to go on full chase mode, which shouldn't be happening. I do think that's messed up. For friendship the gender shouldn't even matter especially if people can supposedly "act like girls" so well. I see these things happen all the time on the marriage thread. Girls are often chased/weirded out after they are bombarded with responses after they type up a profile and they never return lol. Meanwhile, the guys keep returning literally every month!

People should not be marrying with expectations of something real happening someday and if they do, they need to be upfront about it and maybe a lady who is okay with a possible RL relationship will give them a chance. Oh and people(mainly guys) need to stop falling in love with every female character so quickly. At least get to know the person first.

To OP: With so many women on this game who play female characters(Look at this thread itself), guys have to think twice about the gender of the person before writing them off as a male because then they won't ever know. So your idea of not assuming immediately isn't a wrong one. But... maybe the high female population is a double-edged sword now. Guys straight up harassing people, male or female on female characters because the chances of them actually being female is so high these days.

[Azurymber]

I could get over someone being a different age, socioeconomic status, race... like pretty much anything different than what I expected them to be based on what they had told me online. Lies are crappy but I often give people second chances. The problem with lying about gender specifically in the context of a relationship is that many people are attracted almost exclusively to one gender or the other, like in my case. Try as I might I couldn't magically turn myself gay because for many people their sexuality is inflexible.

I can't believe I have to explain this...



No it isn't, because lying about your gender in a video game doesn't make you trans.

Imagine you only dated someone because of who they are inside.
If they lie about their interests, their passions, etc, they are being a completely fake person.
If they turn out to be a different gender than you thought, they are still the same person.

You might personally value gender more than age, personality, etc. But not everyone feels that way.

And if someone in a video game says they are a girl. And continues to say they are a girl. But were born male. Then yes, they are a girl. Regardless with how they look IRL.

And if someone in a video game says they are a girl, but then says "actually i'm not a girl inside I was lying" then they are dishonest.