Dancer - Blue Mage, how they could be done interestingly

[MicahZerrshia]

Problem with BLU as a tank and DNC as a healer is they would need to do something that can't be done by other jobs in those roles which would be difficult given the game's design. What could BLU do that isn't done by the other three tanks when one is already the odd man out?

This is a problem with any new job they create. They adhere so much to the trinity and are so particular about keeping all jobs on even playing ground that it really hurts what they can or cannot do. Basically every job boils down to the same set of moves with different names and animations. This is mainly do to not wanting to make a job outshine another in any piece of content and also not making one with a more complicated rotation than another. It does happen but that's not unusual, esp since we have learned they do not seem to be too great at playtesting since things slip through that are glaringly noticeable immediately to the entire community.

So basically its not really asking what can a new job bring to the table, its more about its playability since there is a demand for new jobs even if they boil down to the same as any other.

[Selvokaz]

This is a problem with any new job they create. They adhere so much to the trinity and are so particular about keeping all jobs on even playing ground that it really hurts what they can or cannot do. Basically every job boils down to the same set of moves with different names and animations. This is mainly do to not wanting to make a job outshine another in any piece of content and also not making one with a more complicated rotation than another. It does happen but that's not unusual, esp since we have learned they do not seem to be too great at playtesting since things slip through that are glaringly noticeable immediately to the entire community.

So basically its not really asking what can a new job bring to the table, its more about its playability since there is a demand for new jobs even if they boil down to the same as any other.

Pretty much this, from the looks of it, it's "Theme first" how to make it "Viable" second. It's also the kind of thing I wish they would move away from. Other MMOs have embraced that the fact that some classes are more challenging than others, but also can be that much more rewarding to the players who enjoy mastering those more complicated systems. To me right now Black Mage feels way more complicated than Redmage or Summoner simply because of the juggling act you have to maintain to make the job optimal, but veteran Black Mages might not see any problem with that, in fact they probably find the other two to easy because they aren't as maintenance heavy. Some people find Summoner to have far to many buttons to keep track of, but I personally find it super easy and it has just enough complexity that satisfies me, where as I find Redmage super boring to play though i have leveled it, and do play it sometimes when I want to be lazy. This is a sub category I guess you could say when it comes to job design.

1.) Pick the Theme of the job. 2.) Pick the Jobs Role. 3.) Pick which type of players you are making this for. The players who like sophisticated jobs with many aspects to manage, or the players who like the more simplistic jobs with very little resource management, and lastly the players who are inbetween.

If I had to go through the entire lest.

Complicated Jobs or Jobs with a bit more demanding skill. (excluding warrior as I haven't played it enough.)
Black Mage, Paladin, Monk, Bard,

The intermediate Jobs skill level wise
Ninja, Machinist, Summoner, Astrologian, Scholar,

Fundamentally simply jobs
Red Mage, Dragoon, Samurai, White Mage.

Note these are all just my opinion, based on my experience with the game thus far. But yeah, if any devs just happen to come across this, kind of take what I said into consideration for the next batch of jobs. Throw some complication in one, and make the other a bit easier to use, so that everyone has a little something to play with.

[Sylvain]

Problem with BLU as a tank and DNC as a healer is they would need to do something that can't be done by other jobs in those roles which would be difficult given the game's design. What could BLU do that isn't done by the other three tanks when one is already the odd man out?

Technically the only thing à tank needs to work in game is
1~ enough mitigation tool to face any content.
2~ effective enmity tools both single target and aoe

I don't quote "enough dps" because you simply wouldn't bring a high dps tank that couldn't survive an encounter. But you would bring a lower dps tank which can survive.

Beside these 2 points, everything else is fluff.
Rotation is fluff (it makes the job interesting to play, but it's not mandatory for the job to perform), utility is fluff (it's welcomed, but DRK has none and yet we bring them)

On the survival part, the blue mage wouldn't have to do "something that hasnt been done yet" simply because current tank don't even use what makes them unique as tank.

Only PLD can heal yet no one does it
WAR can steadily reduce incoming dmg yet no one use the stance
DRK can absorbe and... Oh wait they kinda do it

So as long as you give the BLU their 4~5 mitigation tool and e Pugh mean to hold aggro and a proper dps, you can literally go free style.

The good thing with the blue mage is that they can do anything they want with it since they can tap into any thematic skill.

For instance, I would definitely see them have bad breath. It could be a potent AoE
It could be a potent mitigation tool (like - 20% dmg done for 15s by ennemies with a dot)
Rotation wise, since their caster perhaps we could have a tank without a combo system?
My point is, as long as 1 and 2 are met and that the core game play is fun, it will work.

[Sylvain]

Dancer are a bit trickier because of the way healing works in ff14.

Unlike WoW where a shield can do so much, in FF14 savage boss tend to do nasty aoe burst that can potentially one shot any dps without proper mitigation.

This is where shield are important if not mandatory during early prog, you need that +15%ehp to survive.

Due to how important this is, skill that increase ehp without cooldown usually don't stack (namely shields) but those with cd often do (barriers, bubble etc)

Assuming WHM won't get access to shield, it means that the DNC would need to have access to shield otherwise the combo WHM/DNC wouldn't be able to complete savage content. And this is unacceptable.

So how would they shield? Like a Sch? Then SCH/DNC wouldn't work well(lack of hots namely). Like the AST with stance? People are already not too happy with this and it would feel redundant. Perhaps they could get both hots and shield? But how would other job stand in comparison.

[GDofLevin]

I've brought this issue up before although I don't really understand all the techno jargin. But aren't we all forgetting the most important aspect of a new class? Whether the players want it. And the way to make players want it is to make it flashy and interesting to use. Its all good to create the technical aspects but if everything is too simple there won't be any enjoyment for the players. Adding a little challenge never hurts anything. I myself have been working on three classes and Blue Mage is one of them so anything concerning Blue Mage interests me greatly. Also here's my art concept for a story relevant Blue Mage.

https://www.deviantart.com/tf-lover/...tory-705876064

Tell me what you think.

[Claire_Pendragon]

Problem with BLU as a tank and DNC as a healer is they would need to do something that can't be done by other jobs in those roles which would be difficult given the game's design. What could BLU do that isn't done by the other three tanks when one is already the odd man out?

Game isn't made for evasion based tanking to be viable and DRK was once a pseudo-evasion tank and has since been reworked to be more in line with the other tanks and its role as magic tank pretty much only extends to a single cooldown.

What could DNC do that isn't done by the other three healers when one of those healers is essentially the lovechild of the first two with its own gimmick attached to it?

While there is a needs for more tanks, the way the game is designed makes it difficult for any one of them to have some sort of unique characteristics especially tanks as they all follow the same premise of how they function. Which is why we probably have as many DPS jobs as we do as DPS jobs are easier to design because at the end of the day while they all do the same thing, they do it differently enough be they ranged, melee, or casters support abilities or not.

You said "what can they do"
and "evasion tank"
which makes me assume u meant evasion tanking, which is still tanking, is something other than tanking?

Anyways, you only have 2 options for being bulkier.
Lower the damage the enemy is doing, via taking away a solid number, or a percentage of the number. (Evasion is a chance at % mitigation, rampart is %, and blocking is a chance at a %, While armor takes a solid number away.)
Relocate damage the enemy does to another source, via HP shields, utsusemi, damage MP, etc. (WAR tank stance, and thrill of battle are examples of redirecting the damage to another source, such as temporary HP.)

Convalescence is a buff to the healer, btu limiting that buff to only work when the heals are on you.
It doesnt help u survive a TB that does 999 damage of your HP is 999.
The above 2 can help u survive, if not always. (Block procs would help, but not if they dont proc of course)

The only thing you can change in tanks, is the method in which you trigger the 2 styles of mitigation. Rampart is an easy, 1 button press oGCD.
Its the WHM of tanking.
Where as WARs Inner Beast requires a build up, and planning. Its the RDM of tanking. (Still easy)

There is currently no tank class with a complex mitigation style, as the focus is making DPS harder (its still easy) instead.
There's plenty of ways to change up tanks, as we currently dont have a solid 2s GCD tank, as DRKs bloodweapon isnt a 2s GCD, and nor is it up always.

As someone mentioned the limitations of Healers, technically WHM does have a shield, but its single target. (Used to have stoneskin, which we would attempt to use as a pseudo shield before some attacks)

But anyways, Just as 2 WHMs in a raid finder can use their 2 shields for either TBs or to protect casters (and casters protect them with their role skill)
Id imagine the next healer could still have a semi shield option, but at a cost, that makes it less effective than if an AST or SCH would do it, but better than a WHM.

Essentially similar to when AST can no longer cast spells, to channel their one bubble (I forget what its called) it hinders their own DPS.
And similar to the SChs ground shield.

but it comes at a steep cost, only to be used when paired with a WHM.
(Not that it really matters honestly, double WHMs can handle most content, but it does make things harder on some prog groups, or min iLv in some fights.)

EDIT: Id also make the new healer work with WHM, in something unique like, their shield is garbage, like -2% dmg taken buff, at the cost of yoru own healing being lowered a lot. But if the targets have Regen, or Medica2 HoTs on them, they gain extra mitigation for each. (Sort of turning WHM in a pre-regen healer, acting like a SCH/AST with shields.)

They can reactionary heal, and work with WHMs for shielding, but nto do much in shielding with AST/SCH. (Plus their penalty for healing is ok with WHMs burst healing)

EDIT#2: Another way to make a new healer, who slightly bennifits more being with WHM, but still workable with the other healers, is one that spends a GCD to increase the partys max HP for a few seconds.

Then make sure no AoE heals are oGCD unless it puts the max hp increase on CD/take its resource.
Other healers will have to spend a GCD to heal up the HP before the attack goes off, and WHMs Medica2 would work well. (And ASTs who dont want to shield for some reason)

Because most AST would run shielding, only the SCH could really shield, and help heal the group up while their HP is raised higher. (Unless Im underestimating how much prep time ASTs really have to shield and AoE heal right after, before the raid wide goes out, to which the new healers max HP increase would then need to be lowered to something like 4s, so it wears off before the AST could really get much done with the GCD limitations)

I spend most of my time thinking up new tanks, rather than healers.
I have tons of "unique" ways to mitigate dmg, but only a few ideas for healers, though most of my healer ideas were built on a slightly different MMO design, so I'd have to rework some of them to fit FFXIVs build, and even then, i still havnt spent that much time thinking up new ideas.
But im sure theres plenty more, as these 2 alternatives to shielding I came up with, with just 2mins of thinking on each. (Actually i just thought of 2 more ways as I typed that.)

[Savagelf]

blue mage as duel weild scimitar tank simple put blue could use fire breath as cone shape argo genetor to draw enemy to it. over time blue mage could go out gain ablity or capture in different dungeons. blue magic could have traits that allow it turn it int into hp and increase it ability to dodge it be avoidance tank.

dancer possible a healer with lizardman as intructer the lizard man that scared people as he dances he could dancer quest give and help the dancer learn combat skills the other possible is dancer who was reject by the dance master also could job quest trainer travel all over world learn that her skill as a dancer could improve and heal her ally in adventure she discover rarely ability use fans to heal her allies fans that use heal and keep her allies alive in field combat and strength. fans are use in dancing so this could likely tools for a dancer

[Kabooa]

Blue Mage as:

Role: tank
Sub: Party support

Mechanic: MP maximum is equal to HP maximum. Blue Mages gain MP by taking damage.

Support skills: Toggled Auras. The Blue mage extends fields of power from itself to provide different bonuses, such as damage shields, Haste, and Drain effects. MP is drained while active, and MP generation from damage stops.

Abilities: Blue Magic. Consumes % of Maximum MP, even if that MP isn't held (Having 10% MP when the cost is 15% MP still allows the spell to be cast). Abilities reducing MP to 0 have their refresh timer increased. Defense boosts, self healing, high impact damage goes here.

Weaponskills and Spells: Blue Mages utilize a modular Weaponskill system that empowers Spell Finishers. Weaponskills provide enhancements to Spells that are consumed upon use and reduce Spell MP cost. +damage, +mana generation, +selfbuffs, etc.

Weapon: Twin shortspears that combine into a staff.

[Kabooa]

Dancer as:

Role: Healer
Sub: Party buffer

Mechanic: Dancers primarily interact with enemies utilizing weaponskills and allies utilizing Abilities. Dancer Weaponskills are pointblank "AoE" effects that require no targets. "Single" target weaponskills utilize directional strikes originating from the Dancer.

Support Skills: Dancers improve movement speed, provide the ability to use Cast Time skills while moving, and create dancer patterns on the ground for the party to stand in to gain benefits such as damage reduction, MP regeneration, or HP regeneration

Abilities: Utilizing dancer weaponskills reduce the cooldown of Healing abilities. These follow the standard suite of healer skills (Small single, Large single, AoE, Regen effect)

Weaponskills: Many weaponskills include gap closing and gap creating mechanics. Dancer glyphs are generally assigned to these weaponskills, leaving them at the point of origin and providing a buff to those standing within. Glyphs last for a duration before disappearing. The dancer is a mobile melee healer whose primary concern is maintaining uptime to empower healing abilities and ensure on-point Glyph set up.

[PangTong]

The issue I see with Blue Mage is this: The entire concept of the job is about learning new skills. In a single player game where you gradually learn skills over the course of the story and then complete the game, this system works fine. However in an MMO like XIV where most of the active users and content is at endgame, with a very fixed set of final skills for each job, this presents a problem. Even if you go out of your way to design a special skill-acquisition system specifically for Blue Mage, eventually they are going to get all their necessary skills and have nothing left to learn. So then, what distinguishes them from any other job in endgame content? What is their unique defining trait, once learning monster skills is over?

My idea is that "learning" skills should somehow be incorporated into their rotation. Let's say Blue Mage has 2-3 basic skills, a single-target attack, an aoe attack, and a buff. Under normal circumstances, these skills are quite weak and just use the BLU's normal weapon. However BLU also comes equipped with a special "Learn" trait or ability, where by taking damage from an enemy or using an ability on them, these basic skills are transformed into new, special ones based on the monster that the BLU is fighting.

Enemies would be divided into a few broad categories, such as Humanoid, Beast, Mechanical, Voidsent, Elemental, etc. When "Learn" is used with an enemy of one of these categories, the basic skills become special monster skills based on that category. If you use Learn on a mechanical creature, then your basic attack becomes Rocket Punch, your aoe attack becomes Missile Launcher, or Flamethrower. You get free use of these new abilities for a period of time, and then you can "Learn" again to either get them back or pick a different type of enemy. Each of these attacks in each category would have slightly different functionalities, meaning BLU's rotation and overall party utility would change depending on what type of creature was being fought, which I think would be VERY interesting.

This would be in conjunction with staple BLU spells that they always have access to and learn while leveling, such as Goblin Punch or White Wind.