Character Creation Has A Race Problem

[Lunaxia]

Trust me if I could work some magical logic to not feel compelled to interact with you I would

Or perhaps just exert some measure of control over the huge chip on your shoulder you have about me and your insatiable need to win internet arguments. There is nothing compelling you to respond to me beyond your own ego.

[snip]

LOL, I was waiting for the inevitable "pull up the Google dictionary definition of racism" post. OF never disappoints.

The key word in there is discrimination. Discrimination is any unfair or unjust treatment based on your race or gender, which covers all the more insidious forms of racism people like to pretend don't exist because it's not overt, aggressive racism. To assert there's no problem because there's no obvious hostility is not only wrong but incredibly narrow-minded. Exclusion (more or less the point being made here) whitewashing, lack of representation in the media - it all stems from the underlying, semi-subconscious current that one race/ type of beauty is more preferable or better than another... which is the most basic definition of racism.

It's SE's game, we just play in it and if their story has Hyur looking more or less white that's fine.

It's not fine, and the "hyur aren't people!!" argument is hilarious. Hyur are clearly, blatantly and utterly human rip-offs. They have human features, human naming conventions, human dress and even have distinct human ethnicities, with Anglo-saxon and Japanese having been shown. There are even references to real world religions in this game. There is no reason whatsoever that other races couldn't be included, and insinuating that they shouldn't have, "don't fit" or "don't need" a place in fantasy is both ignorant and racist.

Yes, it's SE's game. But like all mainstream media with a global audience, it falls to them to ensure a rounded and enjoyable gaming experience for all their fans, not just a select few. It's in their financial and reputational interests to do. Being Japanese isn't a reason not to, but in fact an argument for it - if they're so "clueless" about the issue, how will they know otherwise?

My reservations initially were 100% with their attitude [i]as were many others

Always conveniently the way, isn't it? That's not even a viable excuse. More often than not it's a cheap shot used to complain because of the innate hatred certain people have of being reminded of the bias media has, as well as the fact that they benefit from it. If you suddenly change your views because you don't like how something was said, you need to take a good look at yourself.

eh

Racism and representation is a problem, whether you like it or not. Those affected by it do not have to honey their words or not bring it up to make you more comfortable, and the irony in your insistence that they do while calling them whiny and catty is incredible.

[Magic-Mal]

There is a place for intentional inclusion in media and a notable shortage of diversity in many places. This probably isnt one of them.

I see this is still going. Just going to keep it simple then.
-Gay marriage
-Gay characters
-Crossdressing options
-Various outfits from different real world cultures.

All of that seems to be fine?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

The key word in there is discrimination. Discrimination is any unfair or unjust treatment based on your race or gender, which covers all the more insidious forms of racism people like to pretend don't exist because it's not overt, aggressive racism. To assert there's no problem because there's no obvious hostility is not only wrong but incredibly narrow-minded. Exclusion (more or less the point being made here) whitewashing, lack of representation in the media - it all stems from the underlying, semi-subconscious current that one race/ type of beauty is more preferable or better than another... which is the most basic definition of racism.

Or it's an acknowledgement the majority of the Western world is Caucasian, therefore you will have a statistical leaning in that direction unless artificially altered. Attempting to insinuate racism where there isn't any only devalues the word itself. More people nowadays disregard racism, sexism and the like because they have been throw around so carelessly to describe if the slightest offense their meaning has lost significance. Or rather, people simply don't believe even genuine cases.

Racism and representation is a problem, whether you like it or not. Those affected by it do not have to honey their words or not bring it up to make you more comfortable, and the irony in your insistence that they do while calling them whiny and catty is incredible.

Few will argue otherwise. However when, "everything is racist; everything is sexist. And you need to call it all out!" You have the opposite effect: apathy. If everything is something, it holds less significance and people are equally less inclined to believe it.

All of that seems to be fine?

If not, why does anime and JRPGs often depict Caucasian looking characters? Is it racism, bias or Japan simply not actually seeing them as Japanese, White, Black or any other real world race? The former two are assumptions, by the way. The latter has been stated outright by numerous artists.

[Miste]

Or perhaps just exert some measure of control over the huge chip on your shoulder you have about me and your insatiable need to win internet arguments. There is nothing compelling you to respond to me beyond your own ego.

The hypocrisy is strong in this one as usual.

The key word in there is discrimination. Discrimination is any unfair or unjust treatment based on your race or gender, which covers all the more insidious forms of racism people like to pretend don't exist because it's not overt, aggressive racism. To assert there's no problem because there's no obvious hostility is not only wrong but incredibly narrow-minded. Exclusion (more or less the point being made here) whitewashing, lack of representation in the media - it all stems from the underlying, semi-subconscious current that one race/ type of beauty is more preferable or better than another... which is the most basic definition of racism.

Are you seriously suggesting that FFXIV suffers from discrimination in its design?

If so that is blatantly untrue and completely ridiculous.

Does it lack more customization? Yes.
Does it lack more options for hair and facial features? Yes.

Discriminate? No.

You can make a character and design it after pretty much whatever race you want. I agree we need more options for facial features, and hair, etc, but what we have now is NOT discriminatory.

[Iscah]

It's not fine, and the "hyur aren't people!!" argument is hilarious. Hyur are clearly, blatantly and utterly human rip-offs. They have human features, human naming conventions, human dress and even have distinct human ethnicities, with Anglo-saxon and Japanese having been shown. There are even references to real world religions in this game. There is no reason whatsoever that other races couldn't be included, and insinuating that they shouldn't have, "don't fit" or "don't need" a place in fantasy is both ignorant and racist.

What "references to real world religions" are you meaning exactly? I can't think of any.

As I wrote previously, Hyur are physically the only human-equivalent race in Eorzea but they are not culturally the only race. Of course Hyur are people - but so are Roegadyn and Lalafell and whatever else, all regarded as equally "human" in the world of the game.

Should a fantasy world be required to replicate every real human nationality? What if (as is the case here) certain nationalities are instead being used as a basis for non-human cultures? Do there need to be humans alongside each of those other races to ensure their culture is properly represented?

Questions without an easy answer. But I don't think it's as simple as you're saying it is.

[Iscah]

If not, why does anime and JRPGs often depict Caucasian looking characters? Is it racism, bias or Japan simply not actually seeing them as Japanese, White, Black or any other real world race? The former two are assumptions, by the way. The latter has been stated outright by numerous artists.

As I linked earlier, Japanese people apparently do see these characters as Japanese (unless context indicates that they aren't). They're just drawn in a way that Western viewers perceive as Caucasian.

[Aana]

I see this is still going. Just going to keep it simple then.
-Gay marriage
-Gay characters
-Crossdressing options
-Various outfits from different real world cultures.

All of that seems to be fine?

You missed the entire point. Read the whole post.

Real world: Humans evolved accross 6 continents, different lattitudes, different environments resulting in a wide variety in the appearance of humans accross the globe.

FFXIV world: We have only seen two continents. One of them is essentially Asia (mongolian steppe area, the 'east' referencess and then entire aesthetic of kugane/Lord Hien's kingdom etc). Many regions of these continents are entirely devoid of humans all together (Steppe for example) resulting in a relatively smaller variance of human diversity. INSTEAD of human diversity we got 4 completely different NON-human races from various regions. Instead of a group of mongolian looking humans, we got Au Ra. Instead of a group of mid lattitude tropical native inhabitants we got Miquote. Not to mention the beastmen tribes all over the place.

Most every fantasy game cuts back on human variety to make space for non-human fantasy races. Go find a game set in a fictional africa and complain there arent enough white people.

With all that in mind reread the conclusion instead of plucking it out to sound ridiculous.

There is a place for intentional inclusion in media and a notable shortage of diversity in many places. This probably isnt one of them.

[Joven]

As I linked earlier, Japanese people apparently do see these characters as Japanese (unless context indicates that they aren't). They're just drawn in a way that Western viewers perceive as Caucasian.

I thought they primarily drew characters as "white" because it used less ink and was easier for shading?

Yes, it's SE's game. But like all mainstream media with a global audience, it falls to them to ensure a rounded and enjoyable gaming experience for all their fans, not just a select few. It's in their financial and reputational interests to do. Being Japanese isn't a reason not to, but in fact an argument for it - if they're so "clueless" about the issue, how will they know otherwise?

Racism and representation is a problem, whether you like it or not. Those affected by it do not have to honey their words or not bring it up to make you more comfortable, and the irony in your insistence that they do while calling them whiny and catty is incredible.

Well, here this is again. And again I'll point out that works of fiction don't have to represent anybody. The only well rounded and enjoyable gaming experience they HAVE to offer is to make the game playable through gameplay and mechanics. So I'll ask this: why do people feel like fictional characters have to represent them? How does a character not sharing superficial traits like skin color or gender keep you from enjoying a game? Is skin color the only thing you care about in a person?

[HyoMinPark]

What "references to real world religions" are you meaning exactly? I can't think of any.

I’m guessing they’re referring to Ishgard’s religion as an approximation of Catholicism? Or the talk of a lot of Domans of the “Kami”, which could refer to Japanese Shintoism. That’s the only references I can make.

Or they’re referring to the names of certain primals, since a lot of them derive their names from real-life mythology or folklore, though their in-game counterpart can either be similar to real life, or borrowing just the name with regards to likeness; it varies— Lakshmi is an actual Hindu goddess (the goddess of wealth, fortune, and prosperity). Susano-o, Tsukuyomi, and the Four Lords all also have ties to Japanese mythology/folklore: The first two are part of the Kojiki, a compilation of Japanese origin myths; and the Four Lords originally come from Chinese mythology as gods denoted by constellations, but also have representation/presence in Japanese mythology.

Those aren’t the only ones— a quick search will show you that a lot of the primals have real-world counterparts in various different mythologies: Ifrit has Middle Eastern references, Leviathan has references in the Hebrew Bible, Garuda has references in Hinduism and Buddhism.

[Awha]

Or perhaps just exert some measure of control over the huge chip on your shoulder you have about me and your insatiable need to win internet arguments. There is nothing compelling you to respond to me beyond your own ego.

LOL, I was waiting for the inevitable "pull up the Google dictionary definition of racism" post. OF never disappoints.

The key word in there is discrimination. Discrimination is any unfair or unjust treatment based on your race or gender, which covers all the more insidious forms of racism people like to pretend don't exist because it's not overt, aggressive racism. To assert there's no problem because there's no obvious hostility is not only wrong but incredibly narrow-minded. Exclusion (more or less the point being made here) whitewashing, lack of representation in the media - it all stems from the underlying, semi-subconscious current that one race/ type of beauty is more preferable or better than another... which is the most basic definition of racism.



It's not fine, and the "hyur aren't people!!" argument is hilarious. Hyur are clearly, blatantly and utterly human rip-offs. They have human features, human naming conventions, human dress and even have distinct human ethnicities, with Anglo-saxon and Japanese having been shown. There are even references to real world religions in this game. There is no reason whatsoever that other races couldn't be included, and insinuating that they shouldn't have, "don't fit" or "don't need" a place in fantasy is both ignorant and racist.

Yes, it's SE's game. But like all mainstream media with a global audience, it falls to them to ensure a rounded and enjoyable gaming experience for all their fans, not just a select few. It's in their financial and reputational interests to do. Being Japanese isn't a reason not to, but in fact an argument for it - if they're so "clueless" about the issue, how will they know otherwise?

Always conveniently the way, isn't it? That's not even a viable excuse. More often than not it's a cheap shot used to complain because of the innate hatred certain people have of being reminded of the bias media has, as well as the fact that they benefit from it. If you suddenly change your views because you don't like how something was said, you need to take a good look at yourself.

Racism and representation is a problem, whether you like it or not. Those affected by it do not have to honey their words or not bring it up to make you more comfortable, and the irony in your insistence that they do while calling them whiny and catty is incredible.

What I am confused about is how you seem to be fighting for equal representation, yet you only seem to be focusing on the race aspect. Why is that? I understand that this is the topic of the tread, but for some reason I find it extremely unlikely you question the representation of other groups or categories. Just seems like you just want something to complain about. It is a video game, not political statement, enjoy it for what it is, a game.