Character Creation Has A Race Problem

[KaivaC]

It's whatever at this point to me Zsolen. This place has become nothing but a place to throw flaming rocks at the OP. It's almost dang near bullying. And it's sad.

And you are, what, the knight-in-shining-armor, come to defend against the flames standing against her? It's been pointed out multiple times, OP is the one that both started this fire and threw a mountain's worth of gasoline on it before there were even a dozen responses on this thread. And even when it was pointed out that the heart of the issue is the character creator and not representation, that was constantly being questioned by you and her. Don't sit here and try to portray the OP as the victim - she dug herself in that hole and seemingly moved on to different pastures when it was clear she wasn't going to be able to bring herself out of this hole - something that you haven't figured out as of yet.

To summarize: nobody wants to discuss the subject, because in this thread, there's really nothing to healthily discuss in the first place aside from a very lacking character creator. Nobody cares when someone says that a particular race is under-represented, because that's not true and no amount of grandstanding will change that fact. That's just the truth. The character creator is just...weak.

[Magic-Mal]

To summarize: nobody wants to discuss the subject, because in this thread, there's really nothing to healthily discuss in the first place aside from a very lacking character creator. Nobody cares when someone says that a particular race is under-represented, because that's not true and no amount of grandstanding will change that fact. That's just the truth. The character creator is just...weak.

You're back now too? Gang's all here. Defending her? Lol. I'm defending the entire thread itself because this is something I care about. Something I can personally relate to with games conveniently lacking in the same exact things. It doesn't matter if I'll use the options or not.

And you're wrong. We had a perfectly civil discussion before we went back into the mess. Read Iscah's posts back there as an example of what y'all could be doing instead of this.

[KaivaC]

You're back now too? Gang's all here. Defending her? Lol. I'm defending the entire thread itself because this is something I care about. Something I can personally relate to with games conveniently lacking in the same exact things. It doesn't matter if I'll use the options or not.

And your wrong. We had a perfectly civil discussion before we went back into the mess. Read Iscah's posts back there as an example of what y'all could be doing instead of this.

Yes, I'm aware of the direction this thread has took - just because I'm not actively posting doesn't mean I'm not reading. Nor do I follow any one person on these forums. I'll comment when I have something to say, doesn't matter who is or isn't around.

That's fine if you and others care about the subject. It doesn't mean that you folks are necessarily right, either. There's been a near unanimous agreement about requesting additional features - it's the original idea behind it, that minorities are somehow underrepresented, whether intentionally or not, that leaves a sour taste in a lot of people's mouths.

[Nandina]

Don't sit here and try to portray the OP as the victim - she dug herself in that hole and seemingly moved on to different pastures when it was clear she wasn't going to be able to bring herself out of this hole - something that you haven't figured out as of yet.

KaivaC, darling. . . I have something called a life. I haven't dug myself into any hole, I still 100% stand by everything I've stated, and will continue to. However I'm also not going to argue the same points repeatedly.

With that being said, the thread was actually getting somewhere finally until things for whatever reason took a shift again. But I can't help but find it funny that many of you are saying that no one has a problem with the suggestions that could be added to the character customization, but when people talk about the suggestions, you go on to say why those suggestions can't be implemented because "this is a fantasy game" or "there are no real life equivalents to Africa." Seems to me people are against the idea. I'm going to need for you all to remain consistent. Can you all just say you don't want the black features in the game and just call it a day? It's really not that hard. Stick by what you say and mean it. All this deflection is unnecessary.

I already posted four videos referencing what I'm referring to as I was told that the burden of proof was on me, yet very few people actually mentioned those videos.

[Melichoir]

Can you all just say you don't want the black features in the game and just call it a day? It's really not that hard. Stick by what you say and mean it. All this deflection is unnecessary.

Willfully construing your oppositions positions as bigoted or racist does not garner favor among the very people you are trying to persuade.

And INB4 "Oh but I dont care if I persuade them!"

Then all youre attempting to do is preach to the choir if your whole point is to have a discussion and expect everyone to agree with you. Im assuming you didnt make that thread for the purpose of hearing your own voice and everyone applauding you, but rather to express your view and either demonstrate or convince others of your view. You know, what typical forum style conversations are built upon.

So yeah, resorting to proclaiming people dont want 'x' while implying racism and bigotry isnt serving your point, and comes across more as "Imma throw up my arms and just call you all names cause Im tired of the discussion."

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Can you all just say you don't want the black features in the game and just call it a day? It's really not that hard. Stick by what you say and mean it. All this deflection is unnecessary.

And there I thought this thread wasn't about racism or discrimination yet now we have you openly accusing nearly every dissenting opinion of only having said opinion because discrimination. You really are a Tumblr meme.

I'll defer to my preceding post several pages back.

"the character creation only caters to one demographic for the most part, and that's white."
"the character creator severely lacks in this game. Could we see improvements—perhaps fuller lips or larger noses? They really lack a variety in the presets."

I wonder how the conversation would have went had the second option been the OP's initial post~

One of those quotes promotes discussion on actual game features. The other prompted a race war—one you've only proven to have wanted in the first place, otherwise you wouldn't be now accusing people of bigotry.

[KaivaC]

Seems to me people are against the idea. I'm going to need for you all to remain consistent. Can you all just say you don't want the black features in the game and just call it a day? It's really not that hard. Stick by what you say and mean it. All this deflection is unnecessary.

Don't.

Don't you even dare to say something like that again. I am black, living in one of the most segregated cities in America. And one of the things I absolutely cannot stand is when people start trying that reverse racism bs in every form of media, employment, daily life, etc. There is a big difference between saying that there is an issue with the character creator, and saying that the developers are tone-deaf to minorities.

Don't you dare sit there and type that out, saying that nobody wants black features. You want the pretense to be dropped, fine, let's drop all pretenses. I find your original post to be utter garbage that is designed to bait and spur on an argument. I find it disgusting that you are taking on the role of a defiant victim, that you and others are accusing many posters of not wanting 'black features'. Yes, the thread goes on track for maybe a couple pages, but somehow it always circles back to this so-called underrepresentation that keeps getting brought up. You already knew that it was going to start a debate when you said that people were going to be up in their feelings. Yeah, no shit, you are race baiting.

Quit it.

Get over yourself. You dare to bring up MLK and Nelson Mandela...people who actually had real issues to deal with, who actually got up and did something about it. What have you done? Jumped on a computer to argue on a forum. How disgustingly arrogant you are. Your name, your forum name, does not belong in the same footnote as those two amazing gentlemen, who made REAL change on REAL issues. You speak on those two in a thread that you started - you are not speaking up for nothing except this victim mentality that you crafted for yourself, and got some like-minded individuals who are riding the same victim-sharing train that you are conducting right now.

That's quite the ego you got there.

[Iscah]

Please forgive me for reviving this thread, but there are a few things I feel I really need to say.

Firstly, I keep remembering this (which I wanted to respond to at the time, but the discussion was dying down and so I didn't want to restart it - but now it's bothering me since I think it was directed at me).

But I can't help but find it funny that many of you are saying that no one has a problem with the suggestions that could be added to the character customization, but when people talk about the suggestions, you go on to say why those suggestions can't be implemented because "this is a fantasy game" or "there are no real life equivalents to Africa." Seems to me people are against the idea. I'm going to need for you all to remain consistent. Can you all just say you don't want the black features in the game and just call it a day? It's really not that hard. Stick by what you say and mean it. All this deflection is unnecessary.

I guess you are referring to my posts with the "there is no equivalent to Africa" quote, but I had no intention of saying African-looking characters shouldn't be in the game. Rather that currently, since there is no African-inspired culture and thus no need to build NPCs on that theme, then the lack of 'African-style options' in the character creator may be attributed to that.

As the discussion has gone on I think my own thoughts have shifted somewhat - as I posted earlier, there's also the concept of anime characters being drawn "without nationality" and that it's the context, rather than their visible features, that indicate what race they're supposed to be. I think it's possible that that is the mindset with which these characters are designed - and if we do encounter African Hyurans in future they are likely to continue to use the Midlander model as-is. It seems to me that it's the same argument as that very-quickly-dismissed point about the Pokémon characters that got posted some way back in the discussion - the characters are stylised (though in this case 'more realistically' and in a way we associate with one race more than others, even if it wasn't meant that way), and not necessarily intended to represent the full variety of real-world facial features.


On "including 'black features' in the character creator", I'm not against them being included, and never intended that to be my argument. What I've been meaning to say is that however much of a good idea it might be to add them, it seems they won't be added in (at least for Midlanders, as you are requesting) unless they redesign the character creator - which they may not be able to do, at least without taking a considerable amount of resources away from other aspects of the game.

There's a difference between (A) what they could have done better at the start, and (B) what can be changed in the creator as it currently exists. As it currently exists, it seems they cannot add to the available options on existing faces, and if they "swap out" a current option for something new, that would affect existing characters that have that appearance. Every NPC that uses it would need to have their settings updated.

Same goes for the skin colour palette - the character data doesn't store the colour itself, but a grid-reference location of the colour on the palette. The options could have been set up better at the beginning, but now they can't be changed without affecting every character that refers to that colour grid.


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More generally, I've had this discussion in mind as I've been playing the game. I have an alt character in the pre-Titan "Company of Heroes" quest arc, and went to Forgotten Springs - I had totally forgotten (or not paid attention to) how dark-skinned some of the U tribe are. (It's one of the reasons I'm back here typing this - little pangs of guilt every time U'odh Nunh was on-screen.) And without my preconceived thought of Eorzea being strictly Europe, I can see that maybe it does make more sense as an African-desert-inspired region. Again, I don't know enough of those countries enough to recognise it as any more than "a desert oasis setting" without ever having been truly clear on where those are from in the real world.

Also I came across a little more information on Meracydia - firstly it's looking more likely that it's meant to be Africa, because the description for 'sesame seeds' says that the plant is native to there, and (having consulted Wikipedia) in our world it's native to Africa and India.

The other thing I came across that it's possible (but lore is inconsistent) that the Miqo'te originated from Meracydia. Make of that what you will.


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The last thing I wanted to bring up, is that at the end of all this discussion and all the talk about "African features"... it's affected what I'm thinking about when seeing people, and not in a good way. Instead of seeing someone with dark skin and thinking "yes, that's a person, they're African", it's now "what are the shape of their features? Why am I staring at them and thinking about their nose?"

Maybe it's just how my brain works. But it bothers me on a deep level that this discussion you've started with the intent of promoting diversity, has instead set me off thinking about the specific features of a race instead of just seeing people as people.

[Raou]

Can someone tell me definitively why PoC having representation in this game is a bad idea?