What if we got the Sub-Job System in FFXIV?

[KisaiTenshi]

With the fact that the cross-role skills are going to give us all 10... why not with 5.0 shift the system to something tried and true within the Final Fantasy universe?

I get that there would be adjustments, and I also don't agree that the cross-class system is like the sub job system.

It's a lot to ask, but I'd love to know your thoughts? I think there will easily be a "preferred" sub job for each job or role... But we have that now with cross role, etc... Having been playing Octopath Traveler, I just love the sub job system...

Thoughts?

It's a bad idea. FFXIV's content is designed around having all the jobs being equal. All DPS jobs do about the same damage, all tanks have the same number of enmity skills, all healers have the same healing kit.

You wouldn't be able to put in a subjob and have it not become another meta pushed by trolls.

The ideal thing is to change 5.0's content in a way that there is no BiS build, only a preferred party arrangement at a per-fight level. The only way that happens is by not outright stating there is an ideal configuration. eg, think about the tower in FF6 where you can only use magic. So if you had a party with two Melee's, pretty much everything has to be done by the healer. So that would be a piece of content where only RDM, BLM and SMN would be useful in. As there is no non-magic based healer, there is no way to do the opposite at present. Likewise a DRK or PPLD tank would kinda be stuck as they would only end up with one useable skill, and WAR would have none.

Essentially, the game, at present, doesn't support any kind of specialization, because the content is designed so all players are equal in their roles. To add a specialization would also require content where that specialization and ONLY that specialization is required. If that specialization is useless outside that one piece of content, good luck getting people to have it. Then there is also the complication with the duty finder, where if content requires a specialization, then there will be no way of requiring it, thus ensuring a failure condition where players won't play the content without the specialization being present. Or the content becomes "job specific" rather than any role. eg Only casters can queue for the Cultists Tower.



Hence FFXIV will not be able to have something like this without throwing out the current system.

[Zsolen]

I would consider the Tactics system to be subjob. It wouldn't work in an MMO, but you still took a bunch of skills from one class, in addition to picking up a couple more (few?) from others. That first option was the sub-class.

[Kazrah]

I would consider the Tactics system to be subjob. It wouldn't work in an MMO, but you still took a bunch of skills from one class, in addition to picking up a couple more (few?) from others. That first option was the sub-class.

That was the cross-class system pre-SB. It worked for a little bit, but it was much worse with that "illusion of choice" problem than the current role system.

[LineageRazor]

it basically became not "mix and match Jobs to your heart's content", but more "find the sub that gives the best benefit to your main Job and only use that", specifically stat increases and especially abilities that it could use.

This is true, but it was actually made even worse when coupled with the skill-up system. If it wasn't bad enough that taking BLM as a subjob only gave you BLM's spell set up to level 37 (later 49), but you couldn't even cast THOSE spells effectively because your Black Magic skill was ALSO capped to what it would be at level 37. Fire III might not be a top-tier nuke, but it could still be useful as a bit of DPS between Cure spells, or during periods of immunity to physical attacks - if not for the fact that the low Black Magic skill meant enemies resisted it into the single digits. Therefore, you equipped BLM for Stun, Warp, and if your job happened to have Enfeebling skill, Sleepga.

The same went for weapon proficiency. DRG sub to let you use spears for some piercing damage? Sorry, your Polearm skill is capped to the point where you couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

While it's true that everything would boil down to one "best" subjob for any given job, there was potential to make certain subjobs situationally uesful. The skill system killed many combinations that could have been interesting and useful, even if they wouldn't have been generally optimal.

Yeah, the FFXI subjob system was pretty deeply flawed. While I think the system has promise conceptually, in practice I wouldn't say that FFXI did it right.

That was the cross-class system pre-SB. It worked for a little bit, but it was much worse with that "illusion of choice" problem than the current role system.

Particularly since so many of the available cross-class skills were ludicrously unuseful. PLD can cross-class CNJ's Cure - but thanks to low MND, cures for only a couple hundred HP. DRG can cross class MRD's Skull Sunder - but why would DRG want an Enmity-generating tool, especially when not able to combo it for extra damage? Many jobs were LUCKY if they could pick five useful skills out of the set available to them.

[Zsolen]

That was the cross-class system pre-SB. It worked for a little bit, but it was much worse with that "illusion of choice" problem than the current role system.

Oh I know all about that, but if it wasn't for that, I would not have started leveling a bunch of classes. I wouldn't be all 60s then or all 70s now.

[odintius]

Imo, they already have hard enough time balancing the very basics of a mmo for job/att stats. Half of these cross class skills perhaps imo if was taken out it wouldn't even matter for overall balance of the game people would adjust and move on in couple days. If it was like ffxi like then it would matter more, because it isn't just a ability you use it also would need to account for traits/spells/att stats ECT.

I'm not against this though I would like more but in current state of the game isnt going to happen unless allot of core game change happen to support this. /Shrugs

[KageTokage]

As much as I'd like a sub-job system, there'd always be inherent balance issues, even there weren't any abilities that directly boosted DPS available.

IE, BLM could give any job access to Aetherial Manipulation, Manaward, or Convert, but the first of the three would likely be the most popular due to allowing you to reposition before or after mechanics faster so you can DPS longer.

I'd take slightly more imbalanced classes for the sake of having meaningful options available, though.

[Xau]

hmm, dunno, i believe it can be aplied a sub-job if they make some limitations to the system, basically make what players can't use subjob skills on the harder content and just leave it for the most casual content(normal dungeons, normal raids and so on) where party composition do not matter that much, as well nerf or make unable to be used certain skills(lightspeed, inner release and so on)

[Delmontyb]

hmm, dunno, i believe it can be aplied a sub-job if they make some limitations to the system, basically make what players can't use subjob skills on the harder content and just leave it for the most casual content(normal dungeons, normal raids and so on) where party composition do not matter that much, as well nerf or make unable to be used certain skills(lightspeed, inner release and so on)

There is a lot of things they can do, this doesn't have to be the Sub Job system of FFXI, but with the fact you can play the jobs on the same character, they could do their own take. The cross-class skills system was junk, and yes I feel that they would have to make system adjustments overall, but this could be where jobs get specializations.

As a quick example. Imagin if you play WTM, and white mage could pick 1 of 3 jobs to sub job, rather then all 15... each "sub job" acts as a path, that has the skills, traits, etc to take. Helps make balance easier.

[SendohJin]

It means that it's a system that's well known and understood, been in several games in many different forms.

it's not well understood if it has many forms, which form do you want cause many forms of it are awful in MMOs.

As a quick example. Imagin if you play WTM, and white mage could pick 1 of 3 jobs to sub job, rather then all 15... each "sub job" acts as a path, that has the skills, traits, etc to take. Helps make balance easier.

that's almost like the old system and it sucked. what are you saying about it that will actually be better?