So about Summoner...

[Azbroolah]

Forgive me if I'm missing something obvious but if you buffed RDM to have the same DPS as SMN or something, why would any raid group ever want to bring SMN? Making them both the best caster at prog AND at level on speed runs would just destroy other casters because you would just take a RDM for the equal DPS plus the ability to recover if a fight starts to go south. Unless people want RDM to lose Verraise, I guess?

[Capn_Goggles]

BLM mains "had" an issue (well a few since SB release), and they've mostly been corrected. I think a lot of BLM mains are ok with where the class is right now. It's not desired because the community circle jerks this "lul no utility" meme but it's in a good place relative to SMN.

Yeah, it's in a good place compared to SMN, in that it offers the same DPS while having no utility and being harder to play. "Things that tell you somebody mains a job while barely playing or understanding others" is my favorite jeopardy category. "Lul no utility" is a pretty good criticism when all of the jobs that have guaranteed slots are coincidentally all utility jobs.

If BLM received no further changes I could tolerate its current position, but it's not where it needs to be when there are still glaring problems with the job.

[Maero]

Most that are wanting changes are not asking to be equal in damage to smn but have some dmg buffs, changes to embolden and either remove verraise or increase the mp cost

[xxPheNoMeNa]

This is a game where healer and tank optimization means pushing as much damage out of them as possible. This is a game where the common meme is that healers and tanks are just blue and green DPS. This is a game where among healers, damage disparity is one of the biggest debates between them, because healing is so stupidly powerful in the game that even in the most taxing of situations you'll still have space to do more damage.

Yes, the community is fixated on damage output. The whole game is, too.

And none of that matters "equally" for all players. Healers and Tank pushing as much damage as humanly possible literally only matters if you're trying to optimize your clears to the point of speedrunning. That doesn't apply for the majority.

[Dualgunner]

Here's an image worth a look, and it's something I agree with as far as the extent of a RDM "buff". And it's even something Jump said. Something like a cooldown to align better with raid buffs would also raise the skill ceiling.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

Yeah, it's in a good place compared to SMN, in that it offers the same DPS while having no utility and being harder to play. "Things that tell you somebody mains a job while barely playing or understanding others" is my favorite jeopardy category. "Lul no utility" is a pretty good criticism when all of the jobs that have guaranteed slots are coincidentally all utility jobs.

If BLM received no further changes I could tolerate its current position, but it's not where it needs to be when there are still glaring problems with the job.

It's damage output is about equal to SMN WITH our utility factored in. And I play all 3 casters and regularly talk to others who play them as well and optimize as I do. What am I supposedly missing here? The only "downside" to BLM is the fact that it's harder to play. You could say perhaps they still deserve a slight buff to compensate for that, but it really doesn't need much because it would only be abused by those who ARE good at the class and would create balance issues on that end.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

Here's an image worth a look, and it's something I agree with as far as the extent of a RDM "buff". And it's even something Jump said. Something like a cooldown to align better with raid buffs would also raise the skill ceiling.

And I agree with that (and I talk in that discord regularly and have mentioned it there as well). But it shouldn't get any changes BEYOND that. As he said, it only falls behind when you actually begin to optimize your game play heavily (which most players/groups don't do), therefore it's an issue that only few people would have to begin with and even fewer think SE should just throw buffs at the class to compensate for it without understanding the true effect that could have. Notice where he said "if they just buffed RDM's damage, it would be completely broken in prog", that would ALSO be a balance issue and yet people are ignoring that because "well I want my class to be favored"

[Dualgunner]

Just to be clear, I'm not ignoring anything he said, and agree. I'm on his side mostly because being able to sit back and optimize with the team would push RDM's DPS up all on its own; that cooldown addition on its own would put it in the same tier as SMN, where it's good enough for prog, but has life and optimization outside of it as well.

Whereas you, for the past few pages, instead of bringing this quote up, have just been saying "It hasn't been changed, the elites say it doesn't need changed, therefore it doesn't need changed." Then lo and behold I find one of Jump saying that somebody suggested a change he would like.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

Just to be clear, I'm not ignoring anything he said, and agree. I'm on his side mostly because being able to sit back and optimize with the team would push RDM's DPS up all on its own; that cooldown addition on its own would put it in the same tier as SMN, where it's good enough for prog, but has life and optimization outside of it as well.

That change alone wouldn't push it up to SMN's level. It would improve things definitely but it wouldn't be significant to the point of being comparable to SMN currently. I do think that's the one change that "should" be made currently for RDM, but nothing else. But regardless of that change happening or not, it wouldn't change the perception of the class

Whereas you, for the past few pages, instead of bringing this quote up, have just been saying "It hasn't been changed, the elites say it doesn't need changed, therefore it doesn't need changed." Then lo and behold I find one of Jump saying that somebody suggested a change he would like.

I've known about that quote since he said it but it's also not a change that most people here are referencing. Most people when complaining about the dps disparity just want direct potency buffs to "fix" it. His own quote "rather than a buff, we just need our rotation balanced". I've also mentioned earlier (probably days ago when I first posted in this thread) that all RDM needed was a rotational change for alignment purposes (which also coincides with embolden). He's also made comments in the past (like when 4.2 launched) when that discord channel blew up over "no RDM buffs" and he told them they didn't need one nor should they expect it.

[Dualgunner]

That change alone wouldn't push it up to SMN's level. It would improve things definitely but it wouldn't be significant to the point of being comparable to SMN currently. I do think that's the one change that "should" be made currently for RDM, but nothing else. But regardless of that change happening or not, it wouldn't change the perception of the class

The current perception is that it's a braindead weak prog job.

Adding a means of optimization with the team means it's no longer "braindead". As far as has been brought forward, as far as pDPS and rDPS goes, apparently RDM isn't actually all that far behind SMN, so it would be enough of a buff. It would be good for progression, true, but just like SMN it would be able to evolve past it as well.

And even if it's not brought up to SMN's level, it's at least a little bit closer.