So about Summoner...

[xxPheNoMeNa]

I'll be using percentiles as a way to sum up increments of player skill as it is convenient

I'll answer this in bits since char limit

Does anyone actually believe people created this or other threads like this because they decided to complain randomly

Not randomly, but they make threads like this based on false pretenses and a very flawed justification by misusing parses in an attempt to "prove" their point. Making statements like "SMN is the 2nd highest dps in the game" when we can easily prove otherwise is why I have such a problem with threads like this (and even more so that people eat up that title and think it's truth). Maybe at the 50th percentile level of play that's true, but I don't think that's the skill range we should be looking at to make legitimate discussions about class balance no offense.

what about those groups that do Parse runs

This is far from your original point about party finders for PROGRESSION excluding classes that we deemed subpar. If a group is wishing to do parse runs, then they're going to want the best classes that allow them to do just that. There will always be an optimal comp in that aspect and people have to accept that. For the others however who are simply excluding classes for progression purposes (more specifically to the casual/midcore crowd, for hardcore prog composition will matter to a degree), or statics who just weekly clear, that's where the mentality issue shines. You don't need a meta comp just to clear content.

are they all in the 99% or is 90+ the 1%(where is the line drawn)

The line is drawn between those who actually attempt to optimize their game play in such a way where raid comp will actually matter. If you're attempting to legitimately speedrun, comp will matter. If you're attempting to do hardcore progression, comp will matter (to a degree, it's not as strict as speedrunning but you will definitely choose stronger classes for prog that offer clear advantages for the goal of clearing content easily and quickly). If you're doing parse runs then to some degree you also fall into this category. But that's really it. Raid comp does not matter for the sole sake of clearing content really, raid encounters are not tuned like Gordias.

when is it ok for the rest of the player base to be upset with balancing choices

When there's a legitimate case to be made for it. Like the beginning of stormblood when DRG/MCH/SMN/WAR and to a lesser degree BRD and BLM had obvious problems that were even further exposed at higher skill levels, those were balance changes that needed to happen. The recent changes to AST could be detrimental to the balance between healers because if AST actually replaces WHM in prog going forward, then you do have a legitimate case to be made for WHM. Before those changes though, WHM had a very clear advantage in prog. Saying SMN needs a nerf because it's "the best caster" is not a legitimate reason to me, not when DRG + NIN + BRD has been the holy trinity for years and has continued to be untouched while SMN is still struggling to break into that 4th spot. Not when RDM's "strength" is something that can't be shown in parse numbers but is still one of the most overpowered support utilities in the game.

they might be exaggerating but they are issues.

What are these issues? SMN's damage is not a real issue, BLM's damage is not really an issue (BLM is in a decent place right now, maybe they could use a very slight buff but as I said, they're extremely close to SMN with the utility SMN has factored in), people will just inevitably hate on BLM (and SAM) because it's a class that provides absolutely no utility and too many people are shortsighted and only think about what a class can provide to them personally. RDM is not really an issue considering the utility they currently have.

thats a valid desire for them to have and there isn't anything you, me or, anyone can say about that

Yes there is, its "get over it". Accept it because as I said, it's going to happen no matter what balance changes you make. There will always be an optimal comp to be found. Maybe SE will directly (or indirectly) nerf AST to the point where WHM finally has its time to shine outside of prog, but the same issue will be there only its AST sitting there. RDM will forever be a prog only job so long as it can verraise an entire party in 15 seconds. And honestly, I think it's perfectly fine for some classes to be favored for progression while others are favored for optimizing. The class has its use and it would be highly desired for that purpose. But beyond that, this exclusion that the community has towards those classes for anything outside of what I specifically labeled above, that's a mentality that just has to change among the players themselves (yet it probably won't)

[Neela]

And this problem will always exist so long as the community continues to have this mentality about numbers and blindly follow what we're doing without any reason to. You can make all the balance changes you want, no game will ever be "perfectly balanced" and we will always find an optimal comp. So as long as this mentality continues, the community will continue to blindly "exclude" any class that we do (simply because they see us doing it and they'll hear us say that one comp is stronger than another) even though there's literally no reason for them to be doing so.

yeah... its smn now... and another cls if smns time to shine fades some day... for rdm, well I'm with you but you see most of raiders won't accept advantages out of prog or savage at all. rdm will always ask for more dps... with the same arguments ever since. you can remind the com as often as u want its no reason for them to see it through.

and about being overpowered... smn still was strong at release of 4.0 Eirene & a handful of "true 1%" smn showed that already, while casuals and (wannabe-) pros cried for balance. now smn is way easier and more people with less skill/motivaiton can archive those numbers -> building an op status around a cls which was nearly as strong with release but harder to archive. same with blm, the best blm perform great - but those who aren't that perfect in play cry for balance again.

and this will continue with every cls in every major update... thats why top fflogs parses are actually not the best "argument" at all but well... like Pheno said numbers is all what matters, and mostly (I'm not saying all) don't even know how/what those numbers tell...

its not the last thread where people will throw fflogs on the table and say "thats it look at it I'm right you are wrong!"... "oh no you can't count that cause xyz – better look at this one here!" "you both are clueless its all about uwu!!!" - but is it really the point? is it really the point for 99% of the com which aren't in world first races or hall-of-fame-speedruns statistics?

[xxPheNoMeNa]

and about being overpowered... smn still was strong at release of 4.0 Eirene & a handful of "true 1%" smn showed that already, while casuals and (wannabe-) pros cried for balance.

It wasn't really "strong" at the start of 4.0, it appeared strong because a lot of classes needed buffs. Think how bad DRG and MCH were at the very beginning of the expansion, and others like BRD, BLM, etc. received buffs as well. Even we asked for balance changes because there "were" glaring issues with the class, although a lot of it revolved around aspects like mp management and recovering after dying (dying on SMN was just far more punishing than what other dps classes would suffer). The other issue is that radiant shield procs were factored into parses, so when people swapped to Ifrit and you saw these higher SMN parses, that was in part because of radiant shield being added to it. Imagine a ninja having their trick attack contribution factored into their parses and not individually to every person. See how easily that can be flawed? The moment DRG and MCH received their buffs, the meta immediately went back to double ranged comps and even with the 4.1 changes to SMN, a lot of people still questioned whether it was better than MCH. So people "thought" SMN after 4.1 was overpowered, but the very best groups still favored MCH... Was it really that overpowered or are other casters just undertuned (more specifically BLM)?

[xxPheNoMeNa]

And those players preferring meta is part of the mentality. Sfia just went back and attempted to play BLM on an UWU reclear today. He did his initial prog playing RDM and SMN, but he's going back and playing his favorite class because he wants to. Maybe a group won't take a SAM for initial prog, but clear the content and then go back and play it.

SMN is very strong, but it's not so strong that it's "overpowered". RDM still has its niche, BLM is right on its tail and is honestly one small buff away from being outright better than SMN theoretically. That's pretty decent balance. But how the community would perceive that statement would probably be "so SMN offers more overall damage than both classes, it's too strong".

I don't think Monk is a genuine issue right now, Monk is actually pretty disgusting but the limiting factor is whether an encounter allows for triple melee or not. The only glaring issue with melees is SAM. BLM requires more effort to play optimally yes, but "if" it was hypothetically the best clear cut option, people would play it.

"People will always want their main to be the best" Yes, and people need to accept that only 8 classes will be taken in a raid and we shouldn't be advocating for balance changes just because "but I wanna play red mage".

[Wayfinder3]

we shouldn't be advocating for balance changes just because "but I wanna play red mage".

rdm usually want more dps so that they aren't so far behind, im not sure rdm is currently at it's maximum potential for rdps/pdps while being able to still have verraise but, none of them or at least none that i've seen want rdm to be meta. now we both know that verraise is rdm and if they remove it. rdm becomes a great value smn if it isn't that already. personally im just waiting to see how 5.0 shakes the jobs up. If i could make at least 1 change, i'd start with manafication and may streamline the burst windows every 120secs. Change it so that it Refreshes your Movement cds(as it already does), makes the next 3 weapon skills enchanted and reduces the cost of those 3 skills to 0 instead of doubling the gauges current values. it sucks having to do a melee combo right after a trick window because of poor rng.

[Maero]

Of course it is always the smn mains that say the other casters are fine.. lol
Have you not played Red Mage for end game? It really is as bad as most players have been saying so in this thread.
So what are players saying, Red Mage has a niche to what, perhaps introduce players to the game since outside of progression it really does not offer anything that every other job does better (dmg, utility)

Also not sure what all the fuss is about for Red Mage mains wanting changes. We are far enough into the expansion and the job has seen ZERO changes.

[Neela]

Also not sure what all the fuss is about for Red Mage mains wanting changes. We are far enough into the expansion and the job has seen ZERO changes.

hmm true... and I'm not hating rdms why should i... - but I could say I want to clear potd for necromancer title or be as effective in eureka/hoh on my uhm lets say... Mnk? Because I don't wanna be "forced" to play RDM for that content... sound familiar hm?... Whats your solution for that aside of "it doesn't matter cause its not savage" ?

[Megguido]

Of course it is always the smn mains that say the other casters are fine.. lol
[...] We are far enough into the expansion and the job has seen ZERO changes.

Didn't they nerf Vercure potency from 400 to 350 :^)

[Zyneste]

Didn't they nerf Vercure potency from 400 to 350 :^)

That didnt happen. There was a fear that it would be nerfed from 350 to something else, because players felt that 2 GCDS adding up to 700 potency in 3 seconds cast, 5 seconds recast, was just too front loaded and good. Thankfully, SE made no changes there.

[Maero]

Didn't they nerf Vercure potency from 400 to 350 :^)

That could very well be, i mean't more of actual changes that actually benefit the job. Every other job has seen at least some changes (even Sam as bad as some may think it is)

Vercure is a level 54 Spell while Verraise is Level 64. Summoner gets raise at level 18, so how is it that this is a valid arguement? Embolden is also very weak
Smn is equally as good for progression.
@ Neela, i am on the same boat as others in that i would like changes to embolden, a slight damage boost and possibly just remove verraise.
We had 3 Red Mages (including myself) when we started Savage, and well now i am Ninja and the other 2 are blm and smn.