Ultimate hiatus feedback

[jameseoakes]

Would this be a fair categorization of content difficulty?

Easy mode: Deltascape (Normal), Sigmascape (Normal), any story mode primal, and arguably Lakshmi EX?
Normal mode: Deltascape (Savage), Sigmascape (Savage), Final Coil of Bahamut, Shinryu EX, Tsukiyomi EX, Thordan EX
Hard mode: Second Coil of Bahamut (Savage), Alexander Gordias (Savage), Alexander Midas (Savage)
Ultra mode: Bahamut Ultimate, Ultima Ultimate

Hardcore raiders will usually advocate Hard or Ultra mode difficulty. The game really lacks content in the Normal mode difficulty that so-called midcore players want, I presume.

I'd say that way underestimates the difficulty of some of the content, and I'd say shows off the patronising attitude of the higher levels raiders. The current savage fights are still very channelling fights and I do hate the attitude that runs through these treads that they're easy. They might not be as challenging as you want but they are still hard fights.

[Remedi]

The discussion is interesting but maybe it's better to keep this thread as a way to express feedback towards Ultimate

[Dualgunner]

Would this be a fair categorization of content difficulty?

Easy: Deltascape (Normal), Sigmascape (Normal), any story mode primal, and arguably Lakshmi EX?
Normal: Shinryu EX, Tsukiyomi EX, Thordan EX
Hard: Deltascape (Savage), Sigmascape (Savage), Final Coil of Bahamut
Very Hard: Second Coil of Bahamut (Savage), Alexander Gordias (Savage), Alexander Midas (Savage)
Nightmare: Bahamut Ultimate, Ultima Ultimate

I edited it a bit; Delta and Sigma aren't quite on the same level as Shinryu, Tsukuyomi and Thordan EX in terms of difficulty. I'd say they're a cut or so above.

[HyoMinPark]

I'd say that way underestimates the difficulty of some of the content, and I'd say shows off the patronising attitude of the higher levels raiders. The current savage fights are still very channelling fights and I do hate the attitude that runs through these treads that they're easy. They might not be as challenging as you want but they are still hard fights.

If you are comparing them to their predecessors, they are ridiculously easy—Alte Rolte could barely be considered Savage; same with Catastrophe. Phantom Train was an improvement, but Chadarnook is, again, another striking dummy with very few mechanics that can actually endanger a group unless the group is just all over the place. Both Deltascape and Sigmascape are easier than Creator, which was easier than Midas, which was easier than Gordias (albeit Gordias was admitted to be overtuned for its maximum gear at the time).

I’d also say that a lot of raiders would consider Thordan Ex on an entirely separate level compared to the other Extremes, especially at launch. Him and Sephirot were no pushovers, and were definitely harder than TsukuEx mechanically—I’d say she’s probably between Sophia and Nidhogg Ex, though closer to Sophia than Nidhogg. I personally think Thordan Ex is harder than Halicarnassus and Guardian if you think to how he was at launch and all the stuff you had to deal with mechanically.

I edited it a bit; Delta and Sigma aren't quite on the same level as Shinryu, Tsukuyomi and Thordan EX in terms of difficulty. I'd say they're a cut or so above.

I’d honestly wager to say that Thordan Ex at launch is competing with Neo and God Kefka in terms of difficulty. Shinryu is challenging, but I personally find him easier than Halicarnassus. Not Guardian though; I think Guardian is relatively easily if you look at his mechanics.



To bring the conversation back to the topic at hand, if the developers are insistent on taking away the harder content from the raiders in 4.5 (Ultimate), then they should up the difficulty of Savage, or add a fifth and/or sixth floor that are on the same difficulty level as A8S. That’s really the only compromise I can personally be okay with.

[jameseoakes]

If you are comparing them to their predecessors, they are ridiculously easy—Alte Rolte could barely be considered Savage; same with Catastrophe. Phantom Train was an improvement, but Chadarnook is, again, another striking dummy with very few mechanics that can actually endanger a group unless the group is just all over the place. Both Deltascape and Sigmascape are easier than Creator, which was easier than Midas, which was easier than Gordias (albeit Gordias was admitted to be overtuned for its maximum gear at the time).

I’d also say that a lot of raiders would consider Thordan Ex on an entirely separate level compared to the other Extremes, especially at launch. Him and Sephirot were no pushovers, and were definitely harder than TsukuEx mechanically—I’d say she’s probably between Sophia and Nidhogg Ex, though closer to Sophia than Nidhogg. I personally think Thordan Ex is harder than Halicarnassus and Guardian if you think to how he was at launch and all the stuff you had to deal with mechanically.

To bring the conversation back to the topic at hand, if the developers are insistent on taking away the harder content from the raiders in 4.5 (Ultimate), then they should up the difficulty of Savage, or add a fifth and/or sixth floor that are on the same difficulty level as A8S. That’s really the only compromise I can personally be okay with.

To call them normal difficulty fights is pretty insulting. Gordias did seem to show how little interest there was in content of that difficulty without something to feed into it (which I think why Ultimate is a better idea than that) and how much damage it did seem to do to the raid scene.

[HyoMinPark]

To call them normal difficulty fights is pretty insulting. Gordias did seem to show how little interest there was in content of that difficulty without something to feed into it (which I think why Ultimate is a better idea than that) and how much damage it did seem to do to the raid scene.

Gordias did the damage it did to the raid scene because it was overtuned for the maximum ilvl gear there was at the time, and the developers admitted as such. You could not beat A4S without having a max ilvl weapon. It was literally impossible to do. It wasn’t that the difficulty of the mechanics are what turned people off of it—it was the fact that it was literally impossible to clear without the best gear, and DPS from all party members, including tanks and healers was required to meet the checks due to, again, them being overtuned.

Obviously, Deltascape and Sigmascape Savage are harder than “normal difficulty fights”—but some of the latest Savage fights can barely call themselves “Savage” if you look at past Savage encounters—they are closer in difficulty to old Extremes, which in turn are slowly losing what actually made them “Extreme” (looking at you, Byakko Ex and Lakshmi Ex). Though, I would say Alte Rolte is about as hard as a 24-man boss. Difficulty is subjective, but if you look at current Savage compared to older Savage, it’s very easy to say objectively which fights were the harder, more “Savage” fights.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

To call them normal difficulty fights is pretty insulting. Gordias did seem to show how little interest there was in content of that difficulty without something to feed into it (which I think why Ultimate is a better idea than that) and how much damage it did seem to do to the raid scene.

Not really given the context provided. When compared against Godias and Midas, Delta and Sigma are essentially a normal equivalent. The difficulty between the two is staggering. Admittedly, I wouldn't categorize an entire tier like that though because while say, Cruise Chaser isn't on the same level as Living Liquid, it remains a challenging fight. Alte Roite though has no business being labeled Savage. When you can clear with 13 deaths in less than an hour week one, it's not Savage.

[jameseoakes]

Obviously, Deltascape and Sigmascape Savage are harder than “normal difficulty fights”—but some of the latest Savage fights can barely call themselves “Savage” if you look at past Savage encounters—they are closer in difficulty to old Extremes, which in turn are slowly losing what actually made them “Extreme” (looking at you, Byakko Ex and Lakshmi Ex). Though, I would say Alte Rolte is about as hard as a 24-man boss. Difficulty is subjective, but if you look at current Savage compared to older Savage, it’s very easy to say objectively which fights were the harder, more “Savage” fights.

I won't disagree they're easier, I've been in savage this patch. However to try and imply they're 'normal' difficulty is pretty condescending.

[HyoMinPark]

I won't disagree they're easier, I've been in savage this patch. However to try and imply they're 'normal' difficulty is pretty condescending.

That was another poster who labeled them as “normal mode”, not me. All I said is that they are easier compared to their predecessors, with some barely being able to call themselves “Savage” if you look at Alte Rolte and, to some extent, Catastrophe.

Ultimate is supposed to be something for raiders since their content continues to progressively get easier with each and each passing tier. Yoshida has already said that there will be no increase in difficulty for Savage, not even progressively from tier to tier; so, Ultimate was supposed to be the answer for that—to give hardcore players something they want. With nothing in 4.51 for those who have already completed Savage, the patch is going to be very bleak, and I still question the decision, especially given that the reason that it was the community claiming the content every odd .x1 patch was “too rough”.

[jameseoakes]

Not really given the context provided. When compared against Godias and Midas, Delta and Sigma are essentially a normal equivalent. The difficulty between the two is staggering. Admittedly, I wouldn't categorize an entire tier like that though because while say, Cruise Chaser isn't on the same level as Living Liquid, it remains a challenging fight. Alte Roite though has no business being labeled Savage. When you can clear with 13 deaths in less than an hour week one, it's not Savage.

If you where clearing either of those when they where current then you really are a very skilled player but I find it patronising when people start trying throwing around that fights aren't still challenging. It's fine to say the fights aren't as hard as you'd like there a good debate to had there but when people start dramatically underplaying them then I think it shows an unpleasant cliqueness.
I'd agree Alte was probably under-tuned given I was able to clear it on release week with PUGs.

Ultimate is supposed to be something for raiders since their content continues to progressively get easier with each and each passing tier. Yoshida has already said that there will be no increase in difficulty for Savage, not even progressively from tier to tier; so, Ultimate was supposed to be the answer for that—to give hardcore players something they want. With nothing in 4.51 for those who have already completed Savage, the patch is going to be very bleak, and I still question the decision, especially given that the reason that it was the community claiming the content every odd .x1 patch was “too rough”.

The reason does seem a little hollow I’ll admit, I did see someone trying to argue it might be the slower Japanese groups still attempting to clear the previous one not being happy as they want to complete the previous one before starting the new one. No idea if it true but it’s the only good explanation I’ve seen given there reasoning. My guess is they don’t want to commit themselves to doing one every odd patch and want to only release them when they are sure they have a fight that going to be good.

I don’t think I’d be so against more ultimate’s if they didn’t have the strict ilevel lock which makes them only for a small player base once the content is no longer current or maybe if they split the fight up a little so that alongside the full fight they did an easier fight with just the primals from this one for example just so more content comes out of the production time for it.