Omega and future raid concerns

[Bourne_Endeavor]

These comments are becoming slightly antagonizing toward players that are "not them", and getting really defensive every time someone points out a flaw about these recent savage raids. This is a waste of time, what people are asking isn't much and this is acting like we're trying to destroy their sacred cow when this is not the case.

Don't come blaming us if there is not enough players doing these X-Scape Raids when it reaches that point. Some of you can say excuses excuses excuses, but it sounds like every time we point a flaw you all make a excuse for it.

I mean, how would you feel if raiders insisted all the content you enjoy suddenly be ramped up in difficulty to Savage levels? Might get a little defensive too, especially if the developers kept listening to us. Regardless, you're the only who seems to be taking offense here. Several people have provided a counter-argument to your proposal and now you're essentially whining we didn't all agree. The purpose behind Neo and God are to create a spectacle for Savage, and yes, likely entice people to try raiding. If the task is still too daunting, you can challenge those fights down the road at significantly higher ilvls and beat them. Neo Exdeath will only get easier as our ilvl increases. If you're bothered by not seeing all the mechanics due to awkward skips, you wouldn't see even half of them were a normal version ever implemented.

And that brings forward another concern. Since neither Neo nor God have a normal equivalent, the developers can be more creative in how certain mechanics work since there won't be a need to water them down later. Including a normal mode means they either have to redesign it to work at a significantly reduced level or make less daunting mechanics in the Savage version, which inevitably means an easier fight for raiders.

Fortunately, Yoshida said Savage clears are at the highest they've been. So... we're not concerned about the pool of raiders to play with. :v

[KisaiTenshi]

These comments are becoming slightly antagonizing toward players that are "not them", and getting really defensive every time someone points out a flaw about these recent savage raids. This is a waste of time, what people are asking isn't much and this is acting like we're trying to destroy their sacred cow when this is not the case.

Don't come blaming us if there is not enough players doing these X-Scape Raids when it reaches that point. Some of you can say excuses excuses excuses, but it sounds like every time we point a flaw you all make a excuse for it.

The problem is that nobody ever earns their clear for these. That's why you see a jump from 1% completion to 3% once players can outgear it, and to 10% once they can unsync it. If SE was being savage content, savage content would be locked to a gear and item level cap so that it can be done at the standard 15% below maximum DPS contributed player DPS that Yoshi-P designs it for. If you want a slightly faster clear, then die less and let the healers and tanks add some DPS to it. Those extra 10 seconds woo s/.

I mean, how would you feel if raiders insisted all the content you enjoy suddenly be ramped up in difficulty to Savage levels? Might get a little defensive too, especially if the developers kept listening to us.

First, that is exactly what the Raiders do when they demand PUG's play like them and do big pulls. Second, the developers need to let PS4 players play the content, and thus "PC master race" players with whatever else the PC creates an advantage for is not what they will ever tune it for.

If they designed a fight that could only be won by using every dirty trick available to the PC, there would be a worldwide 0% clear rate, there are conditions that could be made where only someone with a $10,000 PC, and the reflexes of a 16 year old could ever win the content. That's why fights are tuned to even less than PS4 levels. The game still needs to be playable on a potato laptop.

There is no "this is perfect for all raiders" level of difficulty. There is "10% of players can clear this", there is "1% of players can clear this", and then there is "only 2 people will clear this." Floor 200 of PotD Solo is the latter. No matter what level it's tuned to, someone will think it's not hard enough and still complain.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

The problem is that nobody ever earns their clear for these. That's why you see a jump from 1% completion to 3% once players can outgear it, and to 10% once they can unsync it. If SE was being savage content, savage content would be locked to a gear and item level cap so that it can be done at the standard 15% below maximum DPS contributed player DPS that Yoshi-P designs it for. If you want a slightly faster clear, then die less and let the healers and tanks add some DPS to it. Those extra 10 seconds woo s/.

Citation needed.

We have Lucky Bancho—a JP player, by the way—who does a census on clear rates; before echo and unsyncing becomes available. The 7-10% cited for Creator froze before Stormblood even released. So no, it isn't artificially bumped later. Nice try though.

First, that is exactly what the Raiders do when they demand PUG's play like them and do big pulls. Second, the developers need to let PS4 players play the content, and thus "PC master race" players with whatever else the PC creates an advantage for is not what they will ever tune it for.

If they designed a fight that could only be won by using every dirty trick available to the PC, there would be a worldwide 0% clear rate, there are conditions that could be made where only someone with a $10,000 PC, and the reflexes of a 16 year old could ever win the content. That's why fights are tuned to even less than PS4 levels. The game still needs to be playable on a potato laptop.

There is no "this is perfect for all raiders" level of difficulty. There is "10% of players can clear this", there is "1% of players can clear this", and then there is "only 2 people will clear this." Floor 200 of PotD Solo is the latter. No matter what level it's tuned to, someone will think it's not hard enough and still complain.

Funny, because I see just as many non-raiders doing massive pulls. Perhaps it has less to do with raider mentality and more the dungeons tuned to such a laughable degree people recognize it's more time efficient to pull everything and AoE them down.

Please tell me you aren't insinuating the game is tuned so low due to PS4 and low end PCs. Not only does that have absolutely no impact on mechanics whatsoever, it screams ignorance. You are talking with someone who started this game on a laptop that couldn't muster 30 FPS at 1080p yet I cleared content without an issue. Even now I play below 60 FPS, albeit at 4k. Difficulty has nothing to do with your setup otherwise games with far more challenging content couldn't exist. WoW offers Mythic+ dungeons. How does that work when it functions on PCs with even lower specs than FFXIV?

And yet no one complained Brute Justice or Ultimate weren't hard enough. In fact, the raid community has only complained Savage became too easy when it was watered down. And complained again when our promised alternative was reduced two fights in two years instead of three. Contrary to your bias, raiders acknowledge there is a limit to how difficult you make things. That doesn't mean you go the opposite extreme and make everything brain dead easy. If players struggle to heal things like World of Darkness, Antitower or story mode instances, that means they aren't as good as they perceive themselves—advice I would suggest you take to heart in lieu of insisting people play White Mage wrong.

[KisaiTenshi]

Funny, because I see just as many non-raiders doing massive pulls. Perhaps it has less to do with raider mentality and more the dungeons tuned to such a laughable degree people recognize it's more time efficient to pull everything and AoE them down.

Only because they're afraid of being punched down for not doing it.

Please tell me you aren't insinuating the game is tuned so low due to PS4 and low end PCs. Not only does that have absolutely no impact on mechanics whatsoever, it screams ignorance. You are talking with someone who started this game on a laptop that couldn't muster 30 FPS at 1080p yet I cleared content without an issue. Even now I play below 60 FPS, albeit at 4k. Difficulty has nothing to do with your setup otherwise games with far more challenging content couldn't exist. WoW offers Mythic+ dungeons. How does that work when it functions on PCs with even lower specs than FFXIV?

Changing the amount of HP a monster has doesn't require any resources. Changing up the speed of mechanics does, and there is an upper limit to where a PS4 and a Potato laptop can reasonably operate. You're not playing a single player FPS game, quit asking for harder twitchy mechanics, they can't be done without culling the player base significantly.

The entire reason MMORPG's are still "turned based" is because that is exactly where the balance lies between everyone being able to play, and not having tiny "arena" sized maps like MMOFPS's and still allowing 144 players to stand in the same Aetheryte location without slowdown.


The "hub world" type of systems that some games employ, are to cover up the lack of actual content the game has. The difference between "MAP 1 - NORMAL" and "MAP 1 HARD" ends up being the HP of the monsters or the number of monsters. That's just lazy development, and players aren't fooled by recolored monsters that hit harder, and I hope Yoshi-P steers away from the "Mythic+" and Mabinogi's versions of this concept that is little more than this. People play content unsynced, not minimum ilevel.

If there was a reward for queuing as minimum ilevel, perhaps we might see the tune change from some players demanding harder content, but really, I don't see it. Yoshi-P can put in a "Minimum ilevel" roulette and see what happens, but really, it's lazy. I doubt more than 5% of the playerbase has played any of the content at minimum ilevel synced.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Only because they're afraid of being punched down for not doing it.

It cannot possibly be even non-raiders recognize dungeons are laughably easier and prefer finishing quickly? Or that perhaps tanks and healers want to actually perform their respective roles not essentially be glorified damage dealers because, again, dungeons are just that easy. No, no. It can only be your scenario. Your bias is showing again.

Changing the amount of HP a monster has doesn't require any resources. Changing up the speed of mechanics does, and there is an upper limit to where a PS4 and a Potato laptop can reasonably operate. You're not playing a single player FPS game, quit asking for harder twitchy mechanics, they can't be done without culling the player base significantly.

The entire reason MMORPG's are still "turned based" is because that is exactly where the balance lies between everyone being able to play, and not having tiny "arena" sized maps like MMOFPS's and still allowing 144 players to stand in the same Aetheryte location without slowdown.

You know, I could go into specific detail on how utterly ridiculous and illogical this argument is. Fortunately, I don't have to because the game already did it. You're essentially arguing things need to be brain dead simply because of low end PCs yet Sephirot EX, Thordan EX, Nidhogg (both versions), Shinryu (both versions), Titan, Aurum Vale, The Vault, The Aery and etc all exist. And I noticed you conveniently ignored I played on a "potato PC" while a friend played on PS3. Upping the difficulty or what have you wouldn't abruptly make either platform unplayable because that isn't how mechanics work. Even Titan EX only suffers because of poor server stability, which has nothing to do with your setup.

What does this even have to do with content difficulty? It's entirely irrelevant.

The "hub world" type of systems that some games employ, are to cover up the lack of actual content the game has. The difference between "MAP 1 - NORMAL" and "MAP 1 HARD" ends up being the HP of the monsters or the number of monsters. That's just lazy development, and players aren't fooled by recolored monsters that hit harder, and I hope Yoshi-P steers away from the "Mythic+" and Mabinogi's versions of this concept that is little more than this. People play content unsynced, not minimum ilevel.

If there was a reward for queuing as minimum ilevel, perhaps we might see the tune change from some players demanding harder content, but really, I don't see it. Yoshi-P can put in a "Minimum ilevel" roulette and see what happens, but really, it's lazy. I doubt more than 5% of the playerbase has played any of the content at minimum ilevel synced.

And yet Mythic+ has been largely successful in WoW, you know, the biggest MMO to ever have existed. Considering the general perception of dungeons nowadays is how boring they are, you may well be surprised if they ever did go that route. And no, that isn't the raid mentality. Yoshida outright admitted the overall playerbase has grown bored hence the removal of a second dungeon every odd numbered patch.

[DaulBan]

If they designed a fight that could only be won by using every dirty trick available to the PC, there would be a worldwide 0% clear rate, there are conditions that could be made where only someone with a $10,000 PC, and the reflexes of a 16 year old could ever win the content. That's why fights are tuned to even less than PS4 levels. The game still needs to be playable on a potato laptop.

What in fresh hell does this even mean

[HyoMinPark]

What in fresh hell does this even mean

I believe the technical terminology for the statement you quoted is "talking out of one's behind".

I had a friend who, up until Stormblood, played and raided on a toaster laptop that hovered at around 11 FPS. He still managed to raid in every tier since Binding Coil. Hardware is not a limiting factor in the tuning of mechanics. The PS4 Pro is more powerful than some PCs are. But, we do have to grasp at straws, I suppose.

[KisaiTenshi]

The herb is always greener on the other side. I was reading somewhere else some hours ago how Mythic+ was a failed content, which makes you redo the same dungeon other and other and other again, the only difference being that it was each time a bit more or less difficult. How it was a cheap solution so that the players "have something to do", while in fact it is no more than boring corean f2p mindless grinding. How doing the same thing on +2, then +4, then +6, then +9, then +10, etc... was a poor attempt at hiding the lack of truly new content.

That's what I said. Why would anyone willing play the exact same dungeon with mobs that just have higher HP and are otherwise identical? Nobody willingly takes a handicap for no benefit, and the only reason Mythic+ works at all is that the reward changes. It's the same in Mabinogi. 99% of the time players just ignore these "more challenging" options because that doesn't give them a clear, and it doesn't give them a reward, it's simply a race. Mabinogi's original dungeons were also pseudo-randomly generated (eg one may have 4 rooms per floor, another may have 30) where as all the content that came out after it used fixed maps and simply made you kill things to find keys that opened different doors in a different order.

That's fun, maybe once. But do you really expect someone to play the dungeon 10 times to clear all the difficulty levels when there's no practical difference between them? No. It's an intentionally lazy way to squeeze more life out of dead content and this is how it would likely look like in FFXIV:
====
"Begin New Duty+ mode":
0(-)---------10
[ ] Minimum ilevel
[ ] No items
[ ] No Abilities
[ ] No job stone
[ ] No materia
[ ] Time Trial

Skill level rating: Kitten
No bonuses will be offered for this dungeon as it is below your skill level.
====
"Begin New Duty+ mode":
0---------(-)10
[x] Minimum ilevel
[x] No items
[x] No abilities
[x] No job stone
[x] No materia
[x] Time Trial

Skill level rating: Ascion
400% increase to (tomes/gil/seals). Level 10 Materia for completion in under XX:XX time. Tomes given will not be subject to weekly limits.
====
Mabinogi gated these things with dungeon passes you actually had to hunt or buy off the cash shop. WoW has Keystones that basically do the same thing.

I believe the technical terminology for the statement you quoted is "talking out of one's behind".

I had a friend who, up until Stormblood, played and raided on a toaster laptop that hovered at around 11 FPS. He still managed to raid in every tier since Binding Coil. Hardware is not a limiting factor in the tuning of mechanics. The PS4 Pro is more powerful than some PCs are. But, we do have to grasp at straws, I suppose.

You can't tell me you haven't seen anything in this game where the effect and animation was seconds behind where it actually was. You know BLM's complain about this all the time.

Go unsync any content, and drag the monster train all the way to the boss room and then hit your AOE bomb. You'll see a good 15 second delay as all the mobs die even on a high end machine.

Now apply that to "harder content" that consists of throwing more monsters at you. It's simply not going to be a thing.

[Sebazy]

Go unsync any content, and drag the monster train all the way to the boss room and then hit your AOE bomb. You'll see a good 15 second delay as all the mobs die even on a high end machine.

Just to clarify, this effect is actually a server side limitation that is in part down to the radial nature in which AoEs are applied in serial rather than parallel. Pazazu’s distance based AoE is a great example of this at peak hours, you can actually hear the effect resolving over the space of a few seconds. It has nothing to do with your client or it’s performance.