Been running Ridorana Lighthouse the whole week and...

[Nihility]

the most interesting thing i noticed about the new system is 100% of the drops are being taken by someone in every run I've been in so far
While the old system half or more of the drops were hitting the ground even on the "2AM patch day first run ever!" run

what a difference a change to perception makes...

Still don't understand this whole concept of it being unfair. It's not like the one drop a week doesn't count if it's not for your main class and they can keep taking 'your' stuff
and really doubt people are taking it just to be spiteful, what would be the point of taking your one piece a week if you can't use it or sell it or do anything at all with it?

[Fawkes]

what would be the point of taking your one piece a week if you can't use it or sell it or do anything at all with it?

One of the sets is Vaan's from Tactics A2, and the rest are based on other tactics classes, so you'd take it if you want to collect it for glamour even if you can't equip it yet. It's not like leveling the job first will help you get it now anyway, so if you think you might want it someday might as well lot now before the lockout is gone and it's a total free for all.

[Enla]

Still don't understand this whole concept of it being unfair. It's not like the one drop a week doesn't count if it's not for your main class and they can keep taking 'your' stuff
and really doubt people are taking it just to be spiteful, what would be the point of taking your one piece a week if you can't use it or sell it or do anything at all with it?

We had at least one person already defending their preference for Greed only /because/ they don't feel certain people should have drops because they 'don't deserve them' for whatever reason. That's pretty much the textbook definition of spite.

[Awha]

We had at least one person already defending their preference for Greed only /because/ they don't feel certain people should have drops because they 'don't deserve them' for whatever reason. That's pretty much the textbook definition of spite.

To be fair I have yet to see many defend greed all in the sense that they would like to stay, or that they agree with the system, sure some have voiced their personal preference, even then most have admired that the system is still flawed. People have defended it in the sense that greed all and need/greed/pass systems both favor certain individuals. If they never made the change more like the conversation never would have been brought it since it was one of those status quo elements to game that most just went along with, but being as the change went through a revert to the old system instead of a rework seems like they would be taking a step backwards, when they have chance to move forward because inherently both systems are not fair and impartial. Is it possible to come up with a system that is fair and impartial I do not know, but would still be an interesting conversation to see if the community can help SE come up with a solution that is better then greed all or need/greed/pass.

Have you considered there might be a reason why it's the status quo more or less since MMOs' inception?

Overall you are right I have had no problem with the status quo, but being as SE made the change simply going back instead of possibly looking into ways to improve the system and find a solution that happens to please both side that have their preference does not seem like a bad thing to me. I mean don't you think it is little odd to dislike one system because it favors certain players, but blindly go back to the previous one that still favored certain players? I mean if it trues out a rework is not possible or simply would take up too much time I have said then go back to the old system since between the two Need/greed/pass fits the status quo. I mean yes it is the way things have been, but SE clearly is open to change so maybe it is time we see if a rework is possible. Even when they mentioned change I did say outside of my personal preference greed all is still a terrible solution when it comes to methods of loot distribution.

[BillyKaplan]

status quo

Have you considered there might be a reason why it's the status quo more or less since MMOs' inception?

[Penthea]

I mean don't you think it is little odd to dislike one system because it favors certain players, but blindly go back to the previous one that still favored certain players?

Have you not thought that WHY a system favours certain players also matters?

The greed only system favours people who have had more time or more inclination to level up more roles, because the more roles you have at 70 the higher the chance of potentially useful loot dropping. Yes everyone can roll on anything but only players who can equip everything get the best use of the system.

Need favours those who are playing the role the loot matches. Your odds at winning useful loot are identical to anyone else who is currently playing the same role as you.

For all your enthusiasm for debating this it seems you haven't really thought about it deeply enough. You seem to put both systems in the same basket simply because they both favour certain circumstances even if they don't favour the same ones.

[Awha]

Have you not thought that WHY a system favours certain players also matters?

The greed only system favours people who have had more time or more inclination to level up more roles, because the more roles you have at 70 the higher the chance of potentially useful loot dropping. Yes everyone can roll on anything but only players who can equip everything get the best use of the system.

Need favours those who are playing the role the loot matches. Your odds at winning useful loot are identical to anyone else who is currently playing the same role as you.

For all your enthusiasm for debating this it seems you haven't really thought about it deeply enough. You seem to put both systems in the same basket simply because they both favour certain circumstances even if they don't favour the same ones.

The point I have been trying to make is both systems are flawed, and outside of my own personal preference I never understood the logic behind SE moving from one flawed system to another. The same basket I am putting them in is how they are both inherently flawed. I mean of course they do not favor the same circumstances, they are different systems so they would have different benefits. I am not defending greed all as the perfect system, am I trying to show that why should we as a community accept either system without at the very least having SE attempt to find a solution that at the very least offers improves for every type of players that runs the content instead favoring a certain play style. I do not disagree with the notion that greed all is a busted system, but all I have been trying to covey is that Need/greed/pass still alienates certain players just as Greed all does. Sure greed all alienates more, and if a loot rework is not possible then SE best call would be to go back to the status quo. I just do not understand why things must come down to they should stay same since others did not think it was broken.

My main issue is I do not think a system should inherently favor one over another if it is possible to find a solution that does not, sure it can raise them up to match their needs, but that should never put them above another person overall. Which is the issue of the old system, and the new system, if you are not part of the system it favors overall you run greater risk of losing out. If that concept is selfish or entitled fair enough I will accept that I am being selfish or entitled. I do not know if such a system is possible, but I do hope SE tinkers with the idea before going with the gut reaction of going back to the old system which carried it's own flaws. I am not trying to have a debate per-se since I do agree the greed all system was a messed up solution to a problem that only effected a handful of people, but since they made a change maybe it is time SE looks into reworking their loot system. That has more or less been my point this entire time. The part I guess I you could say is a debate is the concept behind why as a group should care why a system favors certain players, though so more so has to do with the fact that I never liked the mindset behind certain players gaining a larger benefit simply for fitting requirement. I mean I am not even a fan of tank and healers getting bonuses for simply queuing for content, and I main a tank.

The amount of backpedaling is giving me whiplash.



The only people who'd be alienated by the old system are people who want to roll things they can't be bothered to bring to the raid. And even then the Greed system existed so it's not like they were without options. There's a reason why people keep saying 'if it's not broken, don't fix it'.
The biggest flaw with the old system was RNG to have the item you wanted show up at all, but it's not like the new system addressed it.



It's called "democracy". And a bit of "common sense". You're basically complaining things should change despite absolutely no one agreeing with you.
You'd have a much better case if you were campaigning for a token system without defending this new system which you suddenly aren't in favor of.

I have said from the start that greed all is a busted system, sure I do like it more personally then need/greed/pass but it is a busted system just as I feel need/greed/pass is. I have also said I do not like the RNG aspect, and that is why I lean more towards a token system that allows players to choose what they want as a reward. I prefer greed all because it does give everyone the same chance to win something at the end of the raid, and I have said this many times. I have also said that I do not see how either system is more selfish then the other, each are just selfish for different reasons. Yes I do not agree that because someone can wear the item inherently means they have less right to roll need on a piece of gear then someone because they have are currently that role. Pretty much from the start, maybe it was due to my poor explanation I have stated that I am not much of a fan of either system, I just happen to have my own preference like everyone else.

@Awha:

I have explained why I find the old system fair (everyone has their chance to roll need if their gear drops and other jobs like healers and tanks have much more pressure thus should get their gear instead of losing it to a DD that barely helped.) I am not going to answer more because it seems that both sides have their opinion on it and no matter what people posted it feels like you just repeat your points again.

I understand why others feel the old system is fair, and I have agreed with depending what side your fall on you will find the old system more favorable (thus more fair) just as I think the current system offers more favorable option for players in my position (thus in my eyes more fair) what I am trying get across why is the community up in arms about a change in a loot system that simply changed who it favored instead of rallying together for a rework instead of going with the status quo? Does that make sense? I have never denied another view as to why they feel a system is fair, while I do not agree with notion that one one is inherently more selfish then other. I mean at a whole I can disagree with why someone feels something is fair, I have always viewed fairness as a opinion based thing, so am really trying to convey that maybe we can find a system that is impartial, yet raises certain players needs to meet their needs while not placing them above another. If that makes sense, I just do not understand why that is wrong, not saying you feel it is wrong.

[BillyKaplan]

I do not disagree with the notion that greed all is a busted system

The amount of backpedaling is giving me whiplash.

I have been trying to covey is that Need/greed/pass still alienates certain players just as Greed all does.

The only people who'd be alienated by the old system are people who want to roll things they can't be bothered to bring to the raid. And even then the Greed system existed so it's not like they were without options. There's a reason why people keep saying 'if it's not broken, don't fix it'.
The biggest flaw with the old system was RNG to have the item you wanted show up at all, but it's not like the new system addressed it.

I just do not understand why things must come down to they should stay same since others did not think it was broken.

It's called "democracy". And a bit of "common sense". You're basically complaining things should change despite absolutely no one agreeing with you.
You'd have a much better case if you were campaigning for a token system without defending this new system which you suddenly aren't in favor of.

[BillyKaplan]

the most interesting thing i noticed about the new system is 100% of the drops are being taken by someone in every run I've been in so far

Nah, lots of them hit the floor still. And if they don't it's because people are so disheartened about getting something they want, they roll on whatever, which is not how this should work at all.

Still don't understand this whole concept of it being unfair.

It's a dead horse beaten by now. You can say you disagree but if you say you don't understand then you haven't read the thread.

and really doubt people are taking it just to be spiteful, what would be the point of taking your one piece a week if you can't use it or sell it or do anything at all with it?

Lots of people don't actually need the gear from there because tomestones gear or savage. In that case, if someone pissed them off, they have a roll ready to go that they don't really need. And some people might just roll even if they do need a certain piece, but are just that upset. Don't underestimate spite.