According to FFLogs, AST pDPS >= WHM pDPS in 4.3

[Ceasaria]

This is exactly how SE sees it I reckon. You joke but kinda not and you're absolutely correct. And ultimate world firsts will most likely have WHM for this very reason. Especially considering they seem to have made an easier dps check this time around.
Doesn't mean they totally screwed the balance over with this patch though.

Edit: There's also a part of me that thinks the changes to AST were to make it more desirable in the new ultimate so maybe we're both wrong and world firsts will be full of AST.

The fact that if there is no dps check, you don't have interest to bring AST. if at the very least you could plan Bole, I would say yes, but no. WHM is doing the thing better than AST for the healing part, so bye AST (+nobody want to wait for AST cards at the beginning which cost a lot of dps/ressources for AST at pull).

Helping with MP issues by buffing the reduction percentage has a LOT to do with DPS gains in my eyes, and the fact that LS now doesn't reduce damage anymore means that AST now at least can DPS while using that skill. Not solely, but at least LS doesn't gimp ASTs damage output anymore, so there is a gain if you want to see it or not. Yes, clipping reduction is also important, but don't underestimate this particular buff.

Tell me how it help with MP issues when you got more cast of Malefic III, omg ? It change nothing (except for spamming healing with Lightspeed).

WHM does indeed have the most healing throughout readily available, but how often do you need more than what a SCH or AST offers? And they can reach such healing numbers without aggro issues.

You don't have many stories to tell about missed Earthly Star or Collective Inconscious (causing wipes) did you ?

AST mains have nothing to cry about. they're a 100% promised slot in most pug groups and in speed runs. They're quite frankly getting QoL and Buffs often (while everyone got a nerf bat at the beginning of SB via the new Cross Role system and class skill adjustments)

In 4.2, WHM received a very good buff for his Divine Benison, what convinced me to bring him instead of AST in Bahamut Ultimate, and I didn't regret it.

[Caduagm]

Might be because I don't want to be forced to play something I hate. That's not fun at all, you know. But apparently a really hard concept to understand for you.

Oh, and do you think playing with all the clippings through an entire fight was fun at all?

With the other healer in question also bringing more raid DPS in general because buffs. Nothing wrong complaining about imbalance where there is imbalance. That's the only way to get rid of it - pointing it out (and praying that the Devs finally get their asses up and actually do something about the imbalance...).

I don't even know why you are complaining about that... First of all, you are a very bad WHM according to your logs. You overheal a lot and do very feel DPS. You keep saying pointless things in this thread embarrassing yourself, because you don't know how to play your job correctly. You keep asking for buffs for what? To keep overhealing more and not DPS at all?
You don't play your job right. You are bad at it.

Not sure how that's related, and what that got to do with the completely uncalled-for buff to LS that's responsible for a lot of the damage gain, but okay. Sure.
It also doesn't change how the class was viewed in the past, namely, great because of buffs. Last time I checked, this was about damage output, not how the class felt.

What do you mean? The Lightspeed "buff" was very called. And you know why? Because Lightspeed was very clunky, a very unusable spell in fights. You used to use that once every 150 seconds, for emergency heals (and very little times for movements) and click it off.
And these changes do little for AST's MP problems.
AST was clunky and needed these changes.

You said before that is not fun to play something you hate. Well, first of all, play your job right. Second, you don't deserve to be with people that force you to play something.
ASTs hated the clipping and it was pretty unfair about how fluid the other 2 healers play.
Again, these changes were needed.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

ASTs hated the clipping and it was pretty unfair about how fluid the other 2 healers play.
Again, these changes were needed.

I agree with everything you're saying here, except this bit.
It's a bit of a stretch to say WHM feels fluid. All of their OGCD heals will clip into their GCD, that goes from DPSing with Assize to putting down Asylum.
On top of this WHMs strongest heals are tied to their GCD, so while an AST can simply lay down Earthly Star or a SCH can pop Indom, a WHM would need to stop DPSing to cast Cure III.
I also think Medica II needs to be brought down to 2.5 seconds as well, as it just feels like a completely unnecessary cast time that does nothing but further widen the DPS gap between healers.

These have always been issues, but I feel it's a lot more noticeable now that AST and SCH has had such nice QoL given to them.

[Caduagm]

I agree with everything you're saying here, except this bit.
It's a bit of a stretch to say WHM feels fluid. All of their OGCD heals will clip into their GCD, that goes from DPSing with Assize to putting down Asylum.

What do you mean by that? Are you really comparing the 6 oGCDs WHM has to the 15 ones AST does? Please, don't make me laugh.
You have Aero II with a very small DoT time to weave these oGCDs.

I also think Medica II needs to be brought down to 2.5 seconds as well, as it just feels like a completely unnecessary cast time that does nothing but further widen the DPS gap between healers.

No. Medica II is the strongest GCD AoE based regen in this game, with a larger range.
The changes to Aspected Helios was to be on par with Scholar.

These have always been issues, but I feel it's a lot more noticeable now that AST and SCH has had such nice QoL given to them.

Don' t start victmizing WHM. They got very good QoL changes too. Plenary Indulgence and Divine Benison are good examples.

[Ghishlain]

So, out of curiosity, I was wondering if S-E had adjusted the SSS values to suit the new DPS AST can output. Since the SSS calculator hadn't added the new EX Trial yet, I decided to just get an average of total damage dealt over five runs on both WHM and AST to get my end result.

I used the percentage difference in DPS needed to clear the SSS for each Sigmascape floor as my base line. You can see my results below.



I think "disappointment" is the word I'd use when I see that the percentage difference hasn't changed from pre-4.3 to post-4.3.

[Wilbow]

So, out of curiosity, I was wondering if S-E had adjusted the SSS values to suit the new DPS AST can output. Since the SSS calculator hadn't added the new EX Trial yet, I decided to just get an average of total damage dealt over five runs on both WHM and AST to get my end result.

I used the percentage difference in DPS needed to clear the SSS for each Sigmascape floor as my base line. You can see my results below.



I think "disappointment" is the word I'd use when I see that the percentage difference hasn't changed from pre-4.3 to post-4.3.

The maximum DPS of AST hasn't really changed, but rather the fact that AST can achieve a higher percentage of its maximum DPS when movement and healing demands are thrown into the mix. I think the QoL changes were needed, but between the SCH buff many patches ago and this recent indirect and presumably unintended AST DPS buff, it leaves WHM considerably behind. Anecdotes aside, it's hard to deny that this conclusion is not reflected by the logs we have right now.


Way back in early SB, people found that WHM slightly out-DPS'd SCH in raw potency (IIRC), but SCH always parsed higher in actual content because of the way it delivered its healing and damage. AST and WHM both had significantly more clunk -- or clipping -- to deal with, and it reflected in their actual parses. The best players could mitigate, but not eliminate, DPS losses from those factors. 4.3 basically removed the clunk from AST, and we're seeing the same phenomenon with AST now that we've been seeing with SCH for months.

Post 4.3, if we were to indirectly measure "clunkiness" as the difference between theoretical max DPS and actual DPS, WHM wins hands down in clunk, and its the source of this issue. AST may have more oGCDs, but they're often more situational and now weave seamlessly with most GCD abilities. To the people who are claiming that WHM is fine because it's baby's first healer and that SE balances in such a way, may I note that AST just received a patch where it got a DPS increase while simultaneously drastically reducing its skill ceiling? Jobs should be balanced, period. Difficulty is largely subjective, but performance is not.

[MoroMurasaki]

No. Medica II is the strongest GCD AoE based regen in this game, with a larger range.
The changes to Aspected Helios was to be on par with Scholar.

Don' t start victmizing WHM. They got very good QoL changes too. Plenary Indulgence and Divine Benison are good examples.

Medica II is 40 potency more healing after all ticks have resolved and 240 more mp than Diurnal Aspected Helios. If we are paying 240 more mp on WHM for essentially the same spell with a slightly larger range by all means let's swap with AST, I would be fine with it and most WHMs would too I'd wager.


Comparing the sheer nunber of AST oGCDs with WHM oGCDs is stupid. WHM almost always wants to pop oGCDs as soon as they are up where as AST can go for long periods of time without using their royal road/spread cancellers and essnetially doesn't use Undraw once they have Minor Arcana. You're exaggerating the gap in oGCD usage here by just equating all these actions as if they all see the same useage.

Don't start victimizing AST. Cure III is literally the only thing tying WHM to relevance at this point. It migjt not be broken but right now both AST and SCH are overtuned.

I agree with you that the Malefic III change was needed from a QoL standpoint but it should have come with a potency nerf to compensate for the no longer clipped GCDs. Lightspeed and Aspected Helios changes are fine imo but they need to take away either pDPS or rDPS.

[Ghishlain]

The maximum DPS of AST hasn't really changed, but rather the fact that AST can achieve a higher percentage of its maximum DPS when movement and healing demands are thrown into the mix. I think the QoL changes were needed, but between the SCH buff many patches ago and this recent indirect and presumably unintended AST DPS buff, it leaves WHM considerably behind. Anecdotes aside, it's hard to deny that this conclusion is not reflected by the logs we have right now.

Way back in early SB, people found that WHM slightly out-DPS'd SCH in raw potency (IIRC), but SCH always parsed higher in actual content because of the way it delivered its healing and damage. AST and WHM both had significantly more clunk -- or clipping -- to deal with, and it reflected in their actual parses. The best players could mitigate, but not eliminate, DPS losses from those factors. 4.3 basically removed the clunk from AST, and we're seeing the same phenomenon with AST now that we've been seeing with SCH for months.

Post 4.3, if we were to indirectly measure "clunkiness" as the difference between theoretical max DPS and actual DPS, WHM wins hands down in clunk, and its the source of this issue. AST may have more oGCDs, but they're often more situational and now weave seamlessly with most GCD abilities. To the people who are claiming that WHM is fine because it's baby's first healer and that SE balances in such a way, may I note that AST just received a patch where it got a DPS increase while simultaneously drastically reducing its skill ceiling? Jobs should be balanced, period. Difficulty is largely subjective, but performance is not.

I can understand where you're coming from regarding the maximum DPS for an AST, but that would also imply that it would take several things not into account including card buffs that cause AST to clip their GCDs. It would seem odd given the cards themselves give an effect to the AST so by not including that in their calculations, it would actually imply S-E has missed an important component of the AST kit as a whole.

Which then leads me to question other things but given the design direction of how healer's have been since 3.0, I'm not too surprised either.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

What do you mean by that? Are you really comparing the 6 oGCDs WHM has to the 15 ones AST does? Please, don't make me laugh.

Yes, I am. Because the oGCDs WHM has is used extremely often while ASTs most used oGCD is now Earthly Star and essential dignity. Cards were completely fixed.
Why are you adding them up as if the number of oGCD the job has somehow means they're juggling that many at all times?

And I'm not going to deny that WHM has had some nice QoL. But none of this made is feel, which is the point I was trying to make. WHM is constantly clipping their OGCD heals and mobility is a huge issue for them.

[EaMett]

You have Aero II with a very small DoT time to weave these oGCDs.

This reminds me.. Can we have a potency buff on this already? I would like to clip it.