DPS who do 4k worth of damage = garbage tier

[Miste]

The fact that people need to constantly complain about people in ex and savage shows to me that no, they are not like that and won't ever will be, because they are too used to viewing people as burdens you resent carrying if they don't measure up.

I am a raider.

I helped people learn savage even though I knew the fights already.

No, they were not burdens to me just because they made some mistakes, died some, or confused some mechanics.

You want to know why they weren't burdens?

They appreciated the help, they wanted to put the effort in to do their best, they wanted advice to improve themselves, they were not angry and defensive if I explained mechanics or job specific assistance to them.

They wanted to get better, and they openly showed it with their words, actions, and persistence.

There is a difference between players who want to get better and players that lash out at anything that suggests they may have room for improvement.

Raiders love helping people who want to be helped. Sadly there is a lot who don't want to be helped at all even if they make the same mistake over 10+ times. Sure, you can give people room to let them try to learn on their own, but sometimes you may need a bit of help from someone else and/or an outside perspective....sadly like I said they usually don't want it despite their constant mistakes and will usually respond with insults even if the person offering the help is as polite as possible.

Also as a side note you can't expect people to always take time out of their day/lives to teach/mentor people in savage a lot. People have to be willing to try to help themselves as well...which actually a parser is something players could utilize to help themselves at least with their job rotations and practicing.

[HoodRat]

Just because of how I feel of something

But...how can people attack you for how you feel when you didn't even elaborate on it until after the fact? O_o

[Asiragan]

Another assumption, and quite frankly, rude.

Wait, what? To me it seemed more like encouragements. How is this rude?

If you guys were serious about that you'd already be doing it with your FC mates and building up a stable of people to play with who hit that dps target. You'd be making in-game FCs about raiding and mentoring them there, which is what older MMOs did with their raid populations. There's nothing stopping people from doing it already, the parser doesn't matter one bit. The fact that people need to constantly complain about people in ex and savage shows to me that no, they are not like that and won't ever will be, because they are too used to viewing people as burdens you resent carrying if they don't measure up.

Even though we don't share the same point of view, I recognize the effort to take the topic back on track.


I think that parser are not only an helping tool for people who want to better themselves, but also a tool that give you a "score" at the end of the fight, and that you always aim to do better next time.

I'll be honest, if I did not have that, the raids would feel older faster than it really does. It just give savage raids (and also ultimate for those interested) an entirely different meaning than "go in there, take stuff and get out".

Sure, there will always be toxic players. But they will be here even if parsers weren't.

[Issac]

You're right, have at it. I'm a 4k dps and I refuse to learn from anyone. All your assumptions are true. Parsers are the devil and oh by the way, I'm clearly a troll.

Anyway. Please try to have fun while playing the game. Please excuse me, I have to go use the washroom because I just can't take it anymore.

[RiyahArp]

Don't need to be in an FC when there's a discord full of people across all servers and data centers who are infinitely better equipped to help than an FC lead..

No, they aren't. Discord doesn't do anything compared to an actual connection with an actual player on your own server. If anything discords in general have a bad rep for being houses of drama, precisely because its just randoms with no real connection to keep them civil.

Besides which, there are plenty of raid-centric FCs...
...The parser matters a lot for calculating the best practical way to mix and match abilities, and carve forward a path for others to follow. It's an essential tool for number crunching a game so vague it doesn't even fully describe what half it's stats do.

There's already widespread parser availability if you do savage. Just ask the group. Making it official changes nothing, because no one is forced to use it. There's a small amount of ps4 players who can't, but if they care they ask friends who do. The raid fcs...eh, there really aren't. PF adverts tend to be single players advertising themselves for statics, not raid fcs recruiting players to teach them.

Then how am I supposed to view you, who are apparently too biased and angry at raiders to ever see another viewpoint? In a farm party is not the time to be learning your job. In a farm party is not the time to be learning the fight. In a farm party is not the place to expect to get tips on how to use a Summoner's pets. In a discord like the Balance, which is free and open for all to join, however, people are ready and willing to help at almost all hours of the day.

No, but the help stuff...look, very few people are honest about things, and when they ask for changes, if they aren't honest about what they want from them it will fail. If you think raiders are nice helpful people when the reality is they are nice up to the second run and kick after, you're not going to be able to ask for effective changes. You're going to be really disappointed when the official parser comes and you still get people doing 4k dps, because you really want people to git gud and they have to be forced to, not coaxed to.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

No, they aren't. Discord doesn't do anything compared to an actual connection with an actual player on your own server. If anything discords in general have a bad rep for being houses of drama, precisely because its just randoms with no real connection to keep them civil.

There you go again with baseless assumptions about raiders and the raid community. Are you in these discords? If you were, you'd notice they all have active moderation. In fact, a friend of mine vented the horror story of her static in Xenosys' discord of all places. You know, the supposed bully discord with nothing but assholes. These "assholes" spent a good couple hours going through her logs, giving her advice both on finding a static that meets her needs better and on how to improve as a player. Sure, they meme'd on the awful PLD she had to deal with, but that didn't stop them from offering advice. Maybe if you weren't so closed minded, you might actually see raiders aren't all toxic jerks. Frankly, there are no more toxic raiders than there are toxic casuals. A parse doesn't make you a shitty person.

[HyoMinPark]

No, they aren't. Discord doesn't do anything compared to an actual connection with an actual player on your own server. If anything discords in general have a bad rep for being houses of drama, precisely because its just randoms with no real connection to keep them civil.

I’m curious as to why you would have to have someone actually on your server to mentor you. Why do you think that a mentor has to be on a mentee’s server to offer them advice or assistance?

There's already widespread parser availability if you do savage. Just ask the group. Making it official changes nothing, because no one is forced to use it. There's a small amount of ps4 players who can't, but if they care they ask friends who do.

The issue with “just ask the party” is that you can never be sure that you won’t get that one person who reports just because you post numbers, even if others were asking because they wanted to know where they stood, and numbers were posted with nothing more (i.e., no comments made about them, positive or negative). There have been a few posters in parser debates past that have blatantly admitted that they frequently report people who they even suspect are parsing. A lot of people do not share that they are because of those who would just report willy-nilly.

If you think raiders are nice helpful people when the reality is they are nice up to the second run and kick after, you're not going to be able to ask for effective changes.

I’m sure that you’ve heard of Xenosys Vex. He frequently jumps into parties just to run Savage with them. I was once in an A9S clear group (I had joined because I was dipping into Savage, and I had cleared but was still uncertain of the mechanics), and he was helping the WAR in the group (he was on DRK) learn how to tank the fight. And we were in there for quite some time, not just 2 pulls. He also joined a weekly 2 chest for Neo back when I was with my static in Deltascape, and we had several pulls with lots of sloppiness and dying. He never once said anything bad to us in the chat, and he didn’t leave until we had secured the clear.

Sure, not everyone is going to be like that, and yes, a lot of people get frustrated. I can be one of those people (though that’s mostly when I join farm groups advertised as “fast clears, high DPS” and they end up being a phase one wipe-fest), but when I join learning parties, I generally stay until the group disbands. Even if they are extremely sloppy. I haven’t had much mind to do that lately, but I did it a lot for the HW Extremes.

You're going to be really disappointed when the official parser comes and you still get people doing 4k dps, because you really want people to git gud and they have to be forced to, not coaxed to.

I know that you cannot force players to get better, nor can you force them to care about doing so. That doesn’t mean I’m not going to tell people that there is always room for improvement, regardless of if they are purple, blue, green, or grey. I can’t control their desire for improvement, but I can certainly state that there is always an opportunity to. I just urge those players to not try and jump into harder content if they cannot commit the time and dedication to improving themselves for it.

[Dualgunner]

No, they aren't. Discord doesn't do anything compared to an actual connection with an actual player on your own server. If anything discords in general have a bad rep for being houses of drama, precisely because its just randoms with no real connection to keep them civil.

FCs aren't any better. Anecdotal but I've seen more "house of drama" FCs than I have Discords, and I watched the Kraut and Tea Doxxing Discord Dilemma happen. They are better equipped because the people who have the real number crunching down and understood are there; it's getting your information firsthand or secondhand from near the source, not third hand through an FC lead who may or may not understand the content himself.

There's already widespread parser availability if you do savage. Just ask the group. Making it official changes nothing, because no one is forced to use it. There's a small amount of ps4 players who can't, but if they care they ask friends who do.

This has nothing to do with what I said at all. You're deflecting and I don't appreciate it, and expect better of you. In response to you saying parsers aren't important, I said they are, and outlined that the people who do the number crunching need them.

The raid fcs...eh, there really aren't. PF adverts tend to be single players advertising themselves for statics, not raid fcs recruiting players to teach them.

There really are. Again, you have nothing beyond "There aren't because I say so."

No, but the help stuff...look, very few people are honest about things, and when they ask for changes, if they aren't honest about what they want from them it will fail.

In a farm party, people are either very honest about what they want: a farm, or they're very dishonest about what they want: a carry. Yes, people can be dishonest. This leads to angry veterans who feel like they're carrying people: because in an environment where people are expecting to be able to run content repeatedly for loot, they are not wanting to teach people how to play their jobs. If you're worried about dishonesty, then keep in mind: the novice who joins a farm party without knowing the fight and/or how to play their job effectively are the actual liars in this situation, which is what leads to raiders often leaving such groups after two pulls.

In an environment where the goal is teaching people how to play, however, they are much more lenient on a lot of things.

If you think raiders are nice helpful people when the reality is they are nice up to the second run and kick after, you're not going to be able to ask for effective changes.

If you think that people are joining farm parties and clear parties and are just trying to learn, you're as deluded as you think I am for thinking that raiders are human beings who have a limit on their patience but generally are good people.

Also what effective changes are we asking for now, Riyah?

[RiyahArp]

There you go again with baseless assumptions about raiders and the raid community. Are you in these discords? If you were, you'd notice they all have active moderation.

Chat rooms have had active moderation since the dawn of time. Still doesn't stop them from cliques and drama. If anything the tighter the moderation the worse the drama is when it shows up because the mod team gets so buddy buddy they circle the wagons incredibly fast. The kind of person who is a mod usually never sees the drama till its too late, and then they are honestly puzzled why everything went to crap so fast because they are part of the circle, not outside it. This is also how FCs in this game implode, too often.

As for raiders, I'm just saying this because I don't think "oh, im SOOO helpful" works for what the raider wants to accomplish, or you wouldn't be complaining so much. You are already trying the carrot, but don't want to admit it might be the stick.

[Asiragan]

There's already widespread parser availability if you do savage. Just ask the group. Making it official changes nothing, because no one is forced to use it. There's a small amount of ps4 players who can't, but if they care they ask friends who do.

Making it official actually changes things quite a bit actually, especially about the ToS. And if you change the ToS, no one could get banned for using a third-party tool and that can change a lot how players interact with each over in a party.

Also, if they give an in-game tool for it, it would especially be great for PS4 players, and also PC players who don't trust a third party tool. Though I don't think that they will give us a tool as thorough as FFlogs to analyse everything if they do put an in-game parser ^^'.