DPS who do 4k worth of damage = garbage tier

[RiyahArp]

people are incredibly willing to help out with class education and practice at any level.

If you guys were serious about that you'd already be doing it with your FC mates and building up a stable of people to play with who hit that dps target. You'd be making in-game FCs about raiding and mentoring them there, which is what older MMOs did with their raid populations. There's nothing stopping people from doing it already, the parser doesn't matter one bit. The fact that people need to constantly complain about people in ex and savage shows to me that no, they are not like that and won't ever will be, because they are too used to viewing people as burdens you resent carrying if they don't measure up.

The constant annoyance with and ranking of dps does not really show me that raiders are that kind of chill people, at least the ones who care about it aren't. I don't blame them, because Se made a gameplay style where yeah, you are a burden because there is no second string force in a savage raid; no place for people who aren't skilled enough, like the raise brigades of some mmo fights. It isn't fun wiping and disbanding due to one player, I've been on both sides of that. Just wish people would be honest about it, because if they ask for a parser it won't solve the problems or use terms like garbage, burden, carry, etc, its not really this disinterested mentor stuff.

[Dualgunner]

If you guys were serious about that you'd already be doing it with your FC mates and building up a stable of people to play with who hit that dps target.

Don't need to be in an FC when there's a discord full of people across all servers and data centers who are infinitely better equipped to help than an FC lead.

You'd be making in-game FCs about raiding and mentoring them there, which is what older MMOs did with their raid populations.

Besides which, there are plenty of raid-centric FCs.

There's nothing stopping people from doing it already, the parser doesn't matter one bit.

The parser matters a lot for calculating the best practical way to mix and match abilities, and carve forward a path for others to follow. It's an essential tool for number crunching a game so vague it doesn't even fully describe what half it's stats do.

The fact that people need to constantly complain about people in ex and savage shows to me that no, they are not like that and won't ever will be, because they are too used to viewing people as burdens you resent carrying if they don't measure up.

Then how am I supposed to view you, who are apparently too biased and angry at raiders to ever see another viewpoint? In a farm party is not the time to be learning your job. In a farm party is not the time to be learning the fight. In a farm party is not the place to expect to get tips on how to use a Summoner's pets. In a discord like the Balance, which is free and open for all to join, however, people are ready and willing to help at almost all hours of the day.

[RiyahArp]

Don't need to be in an FC when there's a discord full of people across all servers and data centers who are infinitely better equipped to help than an FC lead..

No, they aren't. Discord doesn't do anything compared to an actual connection with an actual player on your own server. If anything discords in general have a bad rep for being houses of drama, precisely because its just randoms with no real connection to keep them civil.

Besides which, there are plenty of raid-centric FCs...
...The parser matters a lot for calculating the best practical way to mix and match abilities, and carve forward a path for others to follow. It's an essential tool for number crunching a game so vague it doesn't even fully describe what half it's stats do.

There's already widespread parser availability if you do savage. Just ask the group. Making it official changes nothing, because no one is forced to use it. There's a small amount of ps4 players who can't, but if they care they ask friends who do. The raid fcs...eh, there really aren't. PF adverts tend to be single players advertising themselves for statics, not raid fcs recruiting players to teach them.

Then how am I supposed to view you, who are apparently too biased and angry at raiders to ever see another viewpoint? In a farm party is not the time to be learning your job. In a farm party is not the time to be learning the fight. In a farm party is not the place to expect to get tips on how to use a Summoner's pets. In a discord like the Balance, which is free and open for all to join, however, people are ready and willing to help at almost all hours of the day.

No, but the help stuff...look, very few people are honest about things, and when they ask for changes, if they aren't honest about what they want from them it will fail. If you think raiders are nice helpful people when the reality is they are nice up to the second run and kick after, you're not going to be able to ask for effective changes. You're going to be really disappointed when the official parser comes and you still get people doing 4k dps, because you really want people to git gud and they have to be forced to, not coaxed to.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

No, they aren't. Discord doesn't do anything compared to an actual connection with an actual player on your own server. If anything discords in general have a bad rep for being houses of drama, precisely because its just randoms with no real connection to keep them civil.

There you go again with baseless assumptions about raiders and the raid community. Are you in these discords? If you were, you'd notice they all have active moderation. In fact, a friend of mine vented the horror story of her static in Xenosys' discord of all places. You know, the supposed bully discord with nothing but assholes. These "assholes" spent a good couple hours going through her logs, giving her advice both on finding a static that meets her needs better and on how to improve as a player. Sure, they meme'd on the awful PLD she had to deal with, but that didn't stop them from offering advice. Maybe if you weren't so closed minded, you might actually see raiders aren't all toxic jerks. Frankly, there are no more toxic raiders than there are toxic casuals. A parse doesn't make you a shitty person.

[RiyahArp]

There you go again with baseless assumptions about raiders and the raid community. Are you in these discords? If you were, you'd notice they all have active moderation.

Chat rooms have had active moderation since the dawn of time. Still doesn't stop them from cliques and drama. If anything the tighter the moderation the worse the drama is when it shows up because the mod team gets so buddy buddy they circle the wagons incredibly fast. The kind of person who is a mod usually never sees the drama till its too late, and then they are honestly puzzled why everything went to crap so fast because they are part of the circle, not outside it. This is also how FCs in this game implode, too often.

As for raiders, I'm just saying this because I don't think "oh, im SOOO helpful" works for what the raider wants to accomplish, or you wouldn't be complaining so much. You are already trying the carrot, but don't want to admit it might be the stick.

[Dualgunner]

Chat rooms have had active moderation since the dawn of time. Still doesn't stop them from cliques and drama.
If anything the tighter the moderation the worse the drama is when it shows up because the mod team gets so buddy buddy they circle the wagons incredibly fast. The kind of person who is a mod usually never sees the drama till its too late, and then they are honestly puzzled why everything went to crap so fast because they are part of the circle, not outside it. This is also how FCs in this game implode, too often.

If FCs face the same problems that Discords do, then what is the point of you saying "FCs should be used over Discord!"?

As for raiders, I'm just saying this because I don't think "oh, im SOOO helpful" works for what the raider wants to accomplish, or you wouldn't be complaining so much. You are already trying the carrot, but don't want to admit it might be the stick.

It seems more likely to me that maybe you just don't want to admit there's more to a raider than raiding.

[HyoMinPark]

No, they aren't. Discord doesn't do anything compared to an actual connection with an actual player on your own server. If anything discords in general have a bad rep for being houses of drama, precisely because its just randoms with no real connection to keep them civil.

I’m curious as to why you would have to have someone actually on your server to mentor you. Why do you think that a mentor has to be on a mentee’s server to offer them advice or assistance?

There's already widespread parser availability if you do savage. Just ask the group. Making it official changes nothing, because no one is forced to use it. There's a small amount of ps4 players who can't, but if they care they ask friends who do.

The issue with “just ask the party” is that you can never be sure that you won’t get that one person who reports just because you post numbers, even if others were asking because they wanted to know where they stood, and numbers were posted with nothing more (i.e., no comments made about them, positive or negative). There have been a few posters in parser debates past that have blatantly admitted that they frequently report people who they even suspect are parsing. A lot of people do not share that they are because of those who would just report willy-nilly.

If you think raiders are nice helpful people when the reality is they are nice up to the second run and kick after, you're not going to be able to ask for effective changes.

I’m sure that you’ve heard of Xenosys Vex. He frequently jumps into parties just to run Savage with them. I was once in an A9S clear group (I had joined because I was dipping into Savage, and I had cleared but was still uncertain of the mechanics), and he was helping the WAR in the group (he was on DRK) learn how to tank the fight. And we were in there for quite some time, not just 2 pulls. He also joined a weekly 2 chest for Neo back when I was with my static in Deltascape, and we had several pulls with lots of sloppiness and dying. He never once said anything bad to us in the chat, and he didn’t leave until we had secured the clear.

Sure, not everyone is going to be like that, and yes, a lot of people get frustrated. I can be one of those people (though that’s mostly when I join farm groups advertised as “fast clears, high DPS” and they end up being a phase one wipe-fest), but when I join learning parties, I generally stay until the group disbands. Even if they are extremely sloppy. I haven’t had much mind to do that lately, but I did it a lot for the HW Extremes.

You're going to be really disappointed when the official parser comes and you still get people doing 4k dps, because you really want people to git gud and they have to be forced to, not coaxed to.

I know that you cannot force players to get better, nor can you force them to care about doing so. That doesn’t mean I’m not going to tell people that there is always room for improvement, regardless of if they are purple, blue, green, or grey. I can’t control their desire for improvement, but I can certainly state that there is always an opportunity to. I just urge those players to not try and jump into harder content if they cannot commit the time and dedication to improving themselves for it.

[RiyahArp]

I’m curious as to why you would have to have someone actually on your server to mentor you. Why do you think that a mentor has to be on a mentee’s server to offer them advice or assistance?.

There's a big difference between some random telling me to go read the wiki, and an fc mate standing by me watching me on a dummy. Or who will start a learning party and roll healer if I'm a DPS. It's the difference between me doing it all alone and doing it with someone. If you play EVE online, they don't tell you to go to the discord, they tell you to join eve university or the militia, in game stuff, and thats a big part of that game's success.

The issue with “just ask the party” is that you can never be sure that you won’t get that one person who reports just because you post numbers, even if others were asking because they wanted to know where they stood, and numbers were posted with nothing more (i.e., no comments made about them, positive or negative). There have been a few posters in parser debates past that have blatantly admitted that they frequently report people who they even suspect are parsing. A lot of people do not share that they are because of those who would just report willy-nilly.

Making it official actually changes things quite a bit actually, especially about the ToS. And if you change the ToS, no one could get banned for using a third-party tool and that can change a lot how players interact with each over in a party..

...yeah, i get this. It's about needing to protect yourself. But lets just be honest with this, not cloak it in "Oh, I really want this so I can help people." I think people want this more for self-protection and the ability to kick for low dps openly. Because this isn't going to change the game positively; the amount of people who want to improve and don't already have some means of doing so are tiny. The people who report you aren't going to make use of that parser anyways.

I know that you cannot force players to get better, nor can you force them to care about doing so. That doesn’t mean I’m not going to tell people that there is always room for improvement, regardless of if they are purple, blue, green, or grey. I can’t control their desire for improvement, but I can certainly state that there is always an opportunity to. I just urge those players to not try and jump into harder content if they cannot commit the time and dedication to improving themselves for it.

I was thinking on this tonight and I think the problem is that people either think savage is one of two things:

1. its like driving a car
2. its like learning advanced math.

One side thinks that its like driving; its something anyone can do if they just apply themselves and vow to improve. So ideas are based on this. But it might be that savage is more like math, in which that simply doesn't work for a lot of people. In which case, all the discords in the world wont help..you are going to have to accept that and if you want the class cutoff to be Cs and higher, well, you're going to have people dropping the class.

Idk. I think people kind of assume number #1 a bit too much, when something like 4k dps is like getting a D- in a very hard class.

Ah, i forgot Xeno. If the dude streams he's not doing it for you, he's doing it for himself. If he does guides and acts as a community figure, I see it as noblesse oblige.

[HyoMinPark]

There's a big difference between some random telling me to go read the wiki, and an fc mate standing by me watching me on a dummy. Or who will start a learning party and roll healer if I'm a DPS. It's the difference between me doing it all alone and doing it with someone. If you play EVE online, they don't tell you to go to the discord, they tell you to join eve university or the militia, in game stuff, and thats a big part of that game's success.

There are always alternatives to that though. You can do a few things:
—Your mentor can make an alt on your server just to sit and watch your rotation
—You can record footage of you on a dummy and send it to your mentor for analysis
—You can even parse yourself on a dummy (if you have access to a parser) and send the logs to your mentor to look through

While I can understand wanting the mentor-mentee relationship to be more personal, there are more alternatives than just “go read the wiki”.

As for starting learning parties, that’s why it’s good to network. Most of the people I did TsukuEx learning with were not on my server—they were friends that I have made from other servers that I play with and talk to. And one of them I have been mentoring on BRD via sharing rotations, giving advice on Foe’s and IJ optimization, making budget gearsets for them that would be ideal for BRD, and looking over their logs.

And Discord isn’t the only option—we have Cross-world Linkshells now, and while the limit is to just one with 64 people in it, it’s still a place to start. And hopefully it will be expanded on in the future.

[RiyahArp]

There are always alternatives to that though. You can do a few things:
—Your mentor can make an alt on your server just to sit and watch your rotation
—You can record footage of you on a dummy and send it to your mentor for analysis
—You can even parse yourself on a dummy (if you have access to a parser) and send the logs to your mentor to look through

It isn't the same really. Because its all one sided. If they are there, it works both ways, you help them and they you. But with them off server, its they help you only, and the cynic in me says and has seen that it only lasts as long as they enjoy it. You need that parity.

As for networking, again it doesn't replace it being on your server. I know they are trying to push a semi-serverless model more these days, but just the fact you can only meet in instances makes it more of an appointment model than anything

My point is that when you find yourself in a party made by the party finder, whether it's for 24-man raid and such, sometimes people just end up leaving without saying a word. Or just kicking with the other person not even knowing what happened. Because they can't tell them. And if the person doesn't know that he's actually performing poorly, how do you want him to improve anyway?

The "funny" thing is that sometimes people are calling other "bad at dps" while they don't use a parser and don't see that they're actually the one dragging down the group...

And I really don't think that this is healthy for the community at all.

I think people would be a lot meaner if they knew. It becomes personal. If people avoid you for no reason, its saddening, but if they tell you they are because you have an annoying laugh, that will always be in the back of your mind.