(Rant Post) Why Does It Feel Like Giving Advice Is Evil?

[Skivvy]

The ninja got an earful from me too.

People are stupid. So painfully, unashamedly stupid and stubborn. It's not worth it to try to offer friendly advice when a majority of people aren't willing to accept it nicely. Be blunt, and if they are unwilling to change, then they get the boot. Simple and painless. The tone you're trying to give does not come across in text. People assume you're insulting them directly, so it's best not to even bother and try to honey up your words.

Your people skills seem to be severely lacking.

[Crystal_Raven]

Your people skills seem to be severely lacking.

Not really, he's actually on point.

In my job i have to deal with people on a daily basis, usually angry people, it doesn't matter how politely you explain something, the majority of people are just too stupid to understand what you are telling them and believe they are the ultimate being that don't need your advice because they know better. I've had people argue with me about the LAW. The actual LAW, with a lawyer next to me explaining that's not true and trying to correct him. That guy STILL held his own and believed he knows better. It's the same in games. People are stupid, ignorant and stubborn.

With people like these, the easiest approach is to point out where they are making mistakes, if they get angry that's okay, remove from the party, replace, and move on. The one thing people often forget, you are replaceable. You are not special, you are not unique, you are just another person that can easily be replaced with someone better if you're not willing to learn.

[Skivvy]

Not really, he's actually on point.

In my job i have to deal with people on a daily basis, usually angry people, it doesn't matter how politely you explain something, the majority of people are just too stupid to understand what you are telling them and believe they are the ultimate being that don't need your advice because they know better. I've had people argue with me about the LAW. The actual LAW, with a lawyer next to me explaining that's not true and trying to correct him. That guy STILL held his own and believed he knows better. It's the same in games. People are stupid, ignorant and stubborn.

With people like these, the easiest approach is to point out where they are making mistakes, if they get angry that's okay, remove from the party, replace, and move on. The one thing people often forget, you are replaceable. You are not special, you are not unique, you are just another person that can easily be replaced with someone better if you're not willing to learn.

Anecdotes can be found to support any position. I also work in a profession that deals with people all day long, and one that people aren't usually fond of needing to deal with in the first place (insurance). However, I get compliments on a normal basis, and I have many customers who want to work with me directly as they appreciate how I work and treat them.

Anyway, we're obviously not going to see eye to eye on this one. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and work with them vs. automatically assuming the worst. The latter just seems like a miserable way to go about things.

[Eli85]

If you insist on thinking of it like that, then I have no power to stop you. However, I will never see people helping eachother as something toxic, especially in an online game. We'll simply have to agree to disagree on this.

It's the violation of social norms that breeds the toxicity, not the helping each other. Helping someone else is fine, providing they are in a non-life threatening situation and they consent to it. Ultimately, however, we do have a fundamental disagreement on the matter.

Following your logic, then instead of trying to teach, you recommend simply removing you from the party entirely when you make mistakes.

Ok, as you wish.

Erm, no, that does not follow, logically. It is the onus of the person violating the social norm (the unsolicited advice giver) who should leave. Making a mistake should never lead to a removal from the party. Someone can make a mistake, and realize what they did wrong. You do not need unsolicited advice to correct the error. If you get permission? Give the advice all day long. But until you do, or the person is willing to receive it, it is rude and inconsiderate to give unsolicited advice.

[Crystal_Raven]

It's the violation of social norms that breeds the toxicity, not the helping each other. Helping someone else is fine, providing they are in a non-life threatening situation and they consent to it. Ultimately, however, we do have a fundamental disagreement on the matter.



Erm, no, that does not follow, logically. It is the onus of the person violating the social norm (the unsolicited advice giver) who should leave. Making a mistake should never lead to a removal from the party. Someone can make a mistake, and realize what they did wrong. You do not need unsolicited advice to correct the error. If you get permission? Give the advice all day long. But until you do, or the person is willing to receive it, it is rude and inconsiderate to give unsolicited advice.

I don't think so. Your "social norm" is not really the norm, actually you're the odd one out, don't try to make it sound like that's the accepted behaviour.. It's more like a really stupid approach, reminds me of the whole social justice mental illness, but that's another topic.

Tell you what, I can make this very simple, if I ever meet you in a dungeon or raid, I generally play a tank or a healer, I will go out of my way to have you specifically removed from it as to avoid any further discussions and any potential wipes you can cause by refusing to listen to advice and explanations on mechanics. It only takes me a few seconds to find a new group so really it's fine even if i'm the one to be removed.

You want to follow with that mentality, that is fine. Doesn't mean i have to put up with you being in a party with me in the actual game.

[HyoMinPark]

Now you're making stretches. See my edit. Unless I've signed a contract or made a verbal agreement with you, it's socially unacceptable for you to start telling others how to play.

How are they making a stretch? You are the one arguing the semantics of the word “job”—“job” in FFXIV is used to describe what you are playing: PLD, WAR, DRK are tank jobs, WHM, SCH, AST are healer jobs, etc.. We are not talking about a “job” as in a place where you go daily to earn wages. You’re going to lose the argument here, because “job” is what people say to refer to what one plays in the context of this game (and, by extension, in the context of this thread).

If you are in high-end content, there is a level of competency expected of you. Considering one example in the OP was about Tsukuyomi EXTREME, one expects a level of competency in content like that. Yesterday, I was in a group (TsukuEx) with a BRD that never used Refresh for the healers even though we were bottoming out on MP from raising people that were getting hit by the blades. I was in another one where we had a RDM and a SMN, and neither would help raise dead players (even the healers so we could healer LB3 to try and save the run), nor use Mana Shift. When I have to ask for Mana Shift or Refresh in content where it should be expected (especially Refresh because the BRD/MCH lose nothing for using it), there is a problem. Asking a player “Can you please use Refresh for the healer’s MP?” is not unsoliticted advice—it is expected play in high-end content.

If players are in high-end content, they need to know how to play their jobs far beyond just the basics. If they don’t, people are going to call them out on it. Honestly, they should be the ones who are ashamed: joining Extreme primal farms or Savage weeklies and not even knowing the basics of their jobs. They are a hinderance to the other 7 people there, and just because you can be carried through content doesn’t mean that it’s right. Again, I joined a “farm” yesterday with, not only a BONUS, but a SAM that was doing 2,000 less damage than me...a BRD...who had DIED. But they told me that I was the one who sucked when I said I was done after we couldn’t even get past Moon Phase.

Making a mistake should never lead to a removal from the party. Someone can make a mistake, and realize what they did wrong. You do not need unsolicited advice to correct the error. If you get permission? Give the advice all day long. But until you do, or the person is willing to receive it, it is rude and inconsiderate to give unsolicited advice.

It depends on the type of the mistake, and the frequency. If you have someone dying multiple times to the SAME THING, and refusing to listen to advice on how not to die, then they should be the one removed from the group, not the person trying to tell them how to stay alive. Same thing if you have someone that you are clearly carrying through the content—a BRD that refuses to play their songs is not only hurting themselves, but the group as well. If they refuse to use them, then why should the person who asked “Can you please use your songs? You’re a BRD, and you’re hurting your damage and ours” be the one who is forceibly removed? This is speaking in terms of high-end content (though, as a BRD main, I take issue with any BRD I meet in any content that ignores their songs, especially since they are GAINS for them now).

As I said above, I consider it rude on the person who is clearly struggling, and stubbornly refusing to listen to advice that will keep them alive or make the content easier. And this is with regardless of the content. I can be extremely lenient on people that are new, but I also expect them to listen when I explain to them how they can stay alive and make it through the content unscathed. Thankfully, a lot of sprouts and truly new players are more than willing to listen to advice—it’s the veterans that never want to listen, to change, or to adapt. At least in my experience.
This just reminds me of when I ran Halatali for the first time on my alt a few days ago, and the tank spoke up saying “Hi! I’m new, so please let me know what I need to do if I’m doing something wrong! ”, and the mentor was the one who was like “nope” and instantly left the dungeon. How incredibly rude can you get?

[Ilan]

Its because people don't care if they do things right and since you don't pay their sub you have to be quiet. If it bothers you, stop helping and accept that there are things that you can't change. May sound harsh but its sadly true.

[Foe]

@OP It is simply not about what you want. What you are trying to do, by your own admission, is prescribe methods for being optimal because it's gratifying to you. This is how you elect to spend your time. What escapes you then is that not everyone has the same aim/goals as you for when they join. Some people are content to not bother themselves with the effort required to be optimal but have more fun just playing it loose. Or some people prefer to learn things at their own pace and having other people dictate to them is distracting.

Point is, offering help is beautiful, but only when it's specifically asked for. If it's not being asked for, it shouldn't be baffling to imagine ways it can be seen as imposing instead. To the argument that they're impeding the party, then by all means, vote dismiss. That said, it's my belief that it's not our place to tell other people how to use their time unless they ask directly. For the 27 people who liked your post, this escapes them as well.

[Eli85]

Snip.

It really is the social norm. Very rarely, in my day-to-day life, do I see anyone (including myself) battered with unsolicited advice. I'd like to think it's because most people I encounter understand that it is rude and inconsiderate without consent.

As for your hypothetical example, if you choose to be petty like that, that is your choice. Vote dismissals ceased to bother me a long time ago.

Snip

Let's start addressing this long post with one word: connotation. The same word can have very different connotations. When I used the word 'job,' I was very clearly using the word in the connotation of paid employment. If you choose to fixate on this word, invoke a different connotation, and go into off-topic tangents, good for you I guess?

Whether you are in queuable or high-level content, there is no cause to be rude and inconsiderate. The fact that online communities allow this kind of behaviour is indicative of how far these communities have fallen. We can be polite and respectful and address these problems—namely by asking if the person would like some advice, instead of bulldozing them with it, unasked. I think you would find that approach yields much better results.

And in answer to the rest of your post ... helping other players is fine, especially when they seem to be struggling, but instead of adding to their stress and frustration, we should be trying to be polite and respectful in the way that we do it. Why this point is so hard to get across, or why some individuals find this perplexing, is really beyond me.

[KisaiTenshi]

In my job i have to deal with people on a daily basis, usually angry people, it doesn't matter how politely you explain something, the majority of people are just too stupid to understand what you are telling them and believe they are the ultimate being that don't need your advice because they know better. I've had people argue with me about the LAW.

I've been in your shoes, and you're taking the entirely wrong lesson from this. People are not stupid, they are "entitled." You're not explaining things in a way that sounds like it is a benefit to them, so they are going to flip out on you.

Between the wireless, auction and sales leads call centers I worked at, the "stupid person" is not the majority. The genuinely stupid person can have something explained to them, and if they are not willing to follow the instructions, you can hand-hold them through the instructions, and if after that they still don't get it, then you pretty much have to say "please find a teenager to help you." The "worst" call I ever had with trying to explain something? A lady who was unwilling to program her phone, so she passed it to her husband who recently had brain surgery and couldn't stay awake more than 15 seconds. The guy who couldn't stay awake was not stupid, but the wife was unwilling to be helpful. She was told to take the phone to a store. Most "customer support" situations are people who actually WANT help, and they will be thankful for talking to a nice person. When I worked the escalations, I got the completely opposite people, the entitled people who wanted stuff done their way and stomped their feet and held their breath until you give in. I wasn't accepting any of that, you escalate, you lost all the leverage you may have had, and I push you back to the previous rep with the instruction to not give you anything. Who was the most incompetent person in the call center? The person who I trained with who escalated half the calls she got.

When you have leverage over someone, you have control over the situation, that is why you are experiencing arguments from people who can't interpret a contract at your actual job. Those people are the same people who will cut their nose off to spite their face. I've been in those shoes telling people that they've done something illegal, and their services are hereby terminated, they will cry, scream and yell (and one guy flooded every phone number with faxes) until they get attention from someone who will "treat them better" when it's actually their own entitlement that got them into that situation, and they are unwilling to save face. All you can do in those situations is go "Look, you came to me. This is what I do. If you don't like it, your only other option is do nothing, and let nature take its course, at your expense. Nobody is going to change the law for you."

However when it comes to video games, you do not have leverage over anyone. You're not the GM. People who act like entitled jerks, be it in the game, or outside the game (eg forum, discord, reddit, etc), are not good at hiding their true character. If you're not willing to accept that PUG's will never be perfect, and you may get a disaster PUG, then you need to stay out of the duty finder and find a FC or Static to play with. Me, personally, I just roll with whatever PUG I get, and if turns into a disaster, and nobody wants to listen, I'm not going to be the one who aims for the Abandon/Kick button.


Now as to this statement:

I can't help but wonder what exactly is fun about playing like garbage, taking an hour to do something that should take about 15 minutes, and just standing there waiting for a mobs to die while you just watch your dots tick.

That person sounds like a troll honestly. Maybe that is how that person got through all their content. Maybe they just like to play like garbage, and you unfortunately got them. Or maybe they jump-potted and have been playing that way in PotD. But this is one of those situations where they should not have gotten past the first set of trash if they were really playing like garbage. Encounters like this are rare.

People are not inherently stupid, as I said above. What intelligent people perceive as stupidity in the general population is really willful ignorance or entitlement as an act to for some nefarious gain. People who spill hot coffee on themselves at McDonalds are not stupid, they're looking for a lawsuit payout. People who claim not to be aware of the Early Termination Fee in their contracts are looking for a way to skip out on paying for the thing they bought. People who buy and sell counterfeit merchandise online and then have the FBI show up at their door, can not claim not to know. People in the game and on the forum are looking to start a fight, and don't actually have anything meaningful to say other than to insult the player for even having the gall to asking something that was probably covered in a 3 year old guide.

It's incredibly rare to find people who are genuinely stupid, and when they're found, it's usually because PUBLIC education was denied to them, and thus they were either home-schooled, not schooled at all, or were sent to an abusive private religious school, or they had to drop out to find work because their homelife was a wreck to begin with.