(Rant Post) Why Does It Feel Like Giving Advice Is Evil?

[Elliebird]

Is it really that surprising? It's no different than walking up to a stranger in the real world and saying, "You know, if you did it this way you ...". You may get a positive response, or you may get a negative one. It's usually more of the latter, though, and I wouldn't blame them one bit. Unless I am seeking advice, I very rarely want any one else's input. Quite honestly, unsolicited advice does border on rudeness.

I would have to disagree with this, in the context of grouping up with someone. If you and I were working on a project together, that's a different situation than walking up to a random person doing their job on the street and telling them what to do. It's because we're engaged in a group activity together that makes unsolicited advice socially acceptable. As long as you aren't rude with how you approach the player, then it shouldn't come as a problem, because it's to the benefit of everyone- including the person receiving the advice.

[Eli85]

Unsolicited advice happens when you are incompetent at your job. Easiest way to avoid these occurrences is to be competent.

Being dead weight and causing wipes thus wasting time and effort is a hell of a lot more rude than being told what to do.

Yes, because unsolicited advice only occurs in the work place, right?

Look, if you're being paid to do a job, and you're doing it poorly, then yes, you can't complain about being told what to do. That is just the nature of paid employment in results-based businesses. Yet when it comes to a game, a leisure activity, or a hobby? Yes, that unsolicited advice is very rude, which is why you see more negative reactions to it than positive. It's really amazing that in social games (like MMOs) that so many players (the advice givers) cannot grasp this basic social tenet.

I would have to disagree with this, in the context of grouping up with someone. If you and I were working on a project together, that's a different situation than walking up to a random person doing their job on the street and telling them what to do. It's because we're engaged in a group activity together that makes unsolicited advice socially acceptable. As long as you aren't rude with how you approach the player, then it shouldn't come as a problem, because it's to the benefit of everyone- including the person receiving the advice.

Even in that situation unsolicited advice is not acceptable. It is socially acceptable to ask if the person would like your advice. If they say yes, you give it. If they say no, then you have a choice to make: continue on or find new partners and / or group. Unless the person formally agrees to it (eg., employee contract), it is not socially acceptable to start telling other people what to do, unless it is for the well-being of themselves and / or others.

[Crystal_Raven]

Yes, because unsolicited advice only occurs in the work place, right?

Look, if you're being paid to do a job, and you're doing it poorly, then yes, you can't complain about being told what to do. That is just the nature of paid employment in results-based businesses. Yet when it comes to a game, a leisure activity, or a hobby? Yes, that unsolicited advice is very rude, which is why you see more negative reactions to it than positive. It's really amazing that in social games (like MMOs) that so many players (the advice givers) cannot grasp this basic social tenet.

A job as in DPS job, Tank job, healer job.

Seriously it's not that difficult to make that connection.

If you are terrible at it, you will get advice, especially in the harder content.

Would you rather we simply kick those who aren't up to par than try and teach them?

I'm ok with both results.

[Eli85]

A job as in DPS job, Tank job, healer job.

Seriously it's not that difficult to make that connection.

Now you're making stretches. See my edit. Unless I've signed a contract or made a verbal agreement with you, it's socially unacceptable for you to start telling others how to play.

[CaptainLagbeard]

You know how some games literally tell you how to beat a boss and then the game practically holds your hand through the fight, it's kind of like that when someone starts explaining mechanics when nobody asks for it.

[Elliebird]

Even in that situation unsolicited advice is not acceptable. It is socially acceptable to ask if the person would like your advice. If they say yes, you give it. If they say no, then you have a choice to make: continue on or find new partners and / or group. Unless the person formally agrees to it (eg., employee contract), it is not socially acceptable to start telling other people what to do, unless it is for the well-being of themselves and / or others.

I'll admit that I'm confused, because you both disagreed and agreed with me in the same sentence. It is for the benefit of everyone involved in the group activity. The person receiving the advice, as well as the others in that group. If their performance is hindering progress, then it is better to try and give them advice than to simply kick them. It is better to give them advice than to drag the whole group down.

[BroodingFicus]

It can be an iffy undertaking no matter how carefully you word it our how well meaning you are. My rule of thumb tends to be that I don't offer advice unless I see a 'you have a new person' message (if the content is more than a month old) and then its just to give a quick run down of the mechanics that can be deadly or troublesome, without directing it at anyone in particular. I find that is what tends to rub people the wrong way: feeling as if they are being targeted. While you can give advice on a mechanic and not say any names, if you start calling out specific job mechanics and the like of a person who you feel is not playing to their full potential etc, however nicely, some are apt to respond defensively. It could be its in their nature, they could be newer to the game and self conscious, or maybe they've had bad experiences in other games that make them edgy about criticism. There is no way to tell until you've blundered into their hostility and that usually taints the rest of the run.

The only time I will break my own rule is if someone is making a mistake that is actively endangering the party. For example I've had to talk to a few newer Paladins about the fact that flash has a wonky 'delay' and that they're using it too early for it to hit their targets, leading to aggro going everywhere and I've also talked to other White Mages about recasting things like regen on tanks before pulls or between trash seeing as it sometimes leads to them eating a deadly cleave or, again, screwing with aggro. Those are the dangerous ones. Almost anything else you can leave people out of. Somebody running at you instead of away during a chain mechanic? 'Run away from each other to break chains'. No one is called out even if, technically, everyone probably knows who you are talking to. The likelihood is that if the person or persons you are talking to /do/ get offended, they aren't going to raise their hand and admit they were the ones messing up to start with. If it's not dire, I usually leave it alone. That said, if you are the one causing wipes or failing mechanics to the point of party/alliance death, so long as the people advising you are polite, I feel you've lost the right to get testy about unsolicited advice. Especially in later content.

[Eli85]

I'll admit that I'm confused, because you both disagreed and agreed with me in the same sentence.

What you highlighted is not a contradiction. If someone's (or someone else's) life is in peril, that supersedes any social convention, and only that. I really don't know why I have to explain that.

[Elliebird]

What you highlighted is not a contradiction. If someone's (or someone else's) life is in peril, that supersedes any social convention, and only that. I really don't know why I have to explain that.

Likewise, I'm not sure why I have to explain why giving someone advice is the preferable option when you are dealing with multiple people, in a group, using their time to try and complete a goal.

[Eli85]

Likewise, I'm not sure why I have to explain why giving someone advice is the preferable option when you are dealing with multiple people, in a group, using their time to try and complete a goal.

And this is why online gaming gets so toxic, when so many people refuse to embrace common social norms.