Samurai and Red Mage

[Shiroe]

buff sam and caster iin general, make brd less mandatory to a group

I agree on that

[Bhearil]

Problem is not BRD being very useful to have, but instantly needing a DRG to not make BRD a net loss thus locking 2 of the 4 dps slots already.

But we are going offtopic, nerfing BRD wont make SAM/RDM better

[Remedi]

Don't need to nerf BRD to make it less mandatory, especially if you make RDM actually a viable alternative at that point you might create a caster meta, with a triple melee meta and a piercing meta

[Bhearil]

As starters they should modify the buffs that increases X kind of damage and make it global. On the RDM case if you have a Caster Team Embolden only benefits the RDM and the tanks for example, or Monk with Brotherhood, and that forces certain comps

[Wayfinder3]

Problem is not BRD being very useful to have, but instantly needing a DRG to not make BRD a net loss thus locking 2 of the 4 dps slots already.

But we are going offtopic, nerfing BRD wont make SAM/RDM better

Um Bard being in a group without a dragoon is not a net loss. this would imply that having bard without a dragoon is detrimental to your party which is not true. Having Bard and Dragoon is a net gain. Not sure why people don't understand that bard's utility is jsut as strong with or without a dragoon. Dragoon's utility is the one that requires a bard or machinist to be effective.

[Shurrikhan]

buff sam and caster iin general, make brd less mandatory to a group

What kind of buffs are we talking about, though? To things like Mana Shift? To only slightly indirect rDPS contributors like Embolden and Corruption?

[Tracewood]

Maybe the should just give the DPS jobs their own buffs. Or ditch the whole Blunt/Piercing/Slashing mechanic.

It's nice to have synergy, but math gamers will always come up with the most optimal setup and the rest of the playerbase will treat it as gospel.

I feel that SAM is pretty strong if you play it right, it's all about HOW you use Kenki. It needs something else, more speed. Maybe reduction to GCDs and keep the 4.3 buffs.

RDM could use more potency buffs and utility, some DoTs maybe.

[Remedi]

What kind of buffs are we talking about, though? To things like Mana Shift? To only slightly indirect rDPS contributors like Embolden and Corruption?

Mana shift is idd in need of something considering how cumbersome it can be at time, and ye contagion and embolden should be looked at too in my opinion, epsecially the latter in more than just the decay, but also the fact that it's yet another physical buff that on a caster frankly makes no sense, even radiant shield imho is questionable.
Raise utility is nice in prog but loses value imho inspeed kills and if thais used as an excuse to why the class is not given more imho it should just go away.

The problem with casters in the end is that they don't mix well between each other, they have mayor lock during LB(which is limited in utility already because it requires 2+ targets to be effective) and their dmg is shared with healers whose dmg is not the same dmg of tanks as such any magical dmg debuff will not have 2 extra jobs that it covers but let's say just one (if we consider each healer as half dmg of a dps)then we consider that said magical buffs are nearly non existent since you have only contagion and Ifrit is the preferred choice unless you master pet swap (but I don't know if you swap every 1 min, since I don't play SMN much).
When all of this is piled it's no wonder why no1 is speed running with a 2 caster setup or a 3 caster setup even, why would you speed run with 3 jobs that don't really work together when triple melee and piercing meta do have sinergy between each other? Even though BLM not is better, it still bring nothing to the group but is dmg and in a way you can still have the feeling that you could've been more help to the group with another job. Heck SMN is in a better place than BLM because it does more or less the same dmg and it brings some utility to the group.
I admit I don't know how to actually make SAM work in any comp atm, the only way might be pushing DRK+PLD combot o be better than WAR+PLD, while also making NIN less valuable, but generally ye I would rather have other options become more valuable than simply nerfing the existing ones

edit: Though making the 1k limit go away will actually decrease my annoyance by a good 20%

[Hyrist]

I think the issue with Red Mage is a bit easier resolved than indicated. We don't need to be inventing new concepts to be balancing the matter.

If we are preserving the number of skills we have for the class, I do believe automatically converting Jolt II into Impact is necessary for what I am going to suggest.

We need not look far to understand that Red Mage has something in its PvP skills that is bar non far and away different than what it currently has - that being Monomachy. If we can apply this concept to utilities in PVE, we can make a checklist of what we want to cover within that.

Monomachy could potentially be a static single target buff that raises damage for the RDM as serves as a form of damage mitigation for the RDM as has been stated. Obviously in single target sitiuations this would be good, but in multi target its strengths would fall off, which would be balanced. The adjustment of flat gains can be monitored over time and given a tweak up or down as needed by the developers, but its the secondary effect of Monomachy that I feel raiders would be most interested in -

In PvP, Monomachy unlocks debuff potential in additional offGCDs the two that the PvP RDM has being CaC and Displacement. The first provides weight, and the second Bind - both useful debuffs in PvP. But what if we were to expand what skills could proc various effects? For instance, Fletch under the effect of Monomachy could be Physical damage or Piercing damage up. CaC could inflict vulnerability to slashing or perhaps magical damage, Displacement could inflict a Enemy Damage Down Debuff, Etc. To balance this, instead of a damage buff, Monomachy unlocks these various additional effects in Red Mage's offGCDs giving more utility for the class, including more damage for itself when needed. We can add more depth to the job by putting Monomachy on a Cooldown and wearing off on the first additional effect inflicted forcing Red Mage to decide which additional effect to use when within a Raid - and just insure that the potency of these debuffs are balanced out (which could take time).

And it would also solve my huge annoyance of Monomachy existing in PvP with absolutely no reference to its PvE incarnation whatsoever. >.>

[Shurrikhan]

I think the issue with Red Mage is a bit easier resolved than indicated. We don't need to be inventing new concepts to be balancing the matter.

If we are preserving the number of skills we have for the class, I do believe automatically converting Jolt II into Impact is necessary for what I am going to suggest.

We need not look far to understand that Red Mage has something in its PvP skills that is bar non far and away different than what it currently has - that being Monomachy. If we can apply this concept to utilities in PVE, we can make a checklist of what we want to cover within that.

Monomachy could potentially be a static single target buff that raises damage for the RDM as serves as a form of damage mitigation for the RDM as has been stated. Obviously in single target sitiuations this would be good, but in multi target its strengths would fall off, which would be balanced. The adjustment of flat gains can be monitored over time and given a tweak up or down as needed by the developers, but its the secondary effect of Monomachy that I feel raiders would be most interested in -

In PvP, Monomachy unlocks debuff potential in additional offGCDs the two that the PvP RDM has being CaC and Displacement. The first provides weight, and the second Bind - both useful debuffs in PvP. But what if we were to expand what skills could proc various effects? For instance, Fletch under the effect of Monomachy could be Physical damage or Piercing damage up. CaC could inflict vulnerability to slashing or perhaps magical damage, Displacement could inflict a Enemy Damage Down Debuff, Etc. To balance this, instead of a damage buff, Monomachy unlocks these various additional effects in Red Mage's offGCDs giving more utility for the class, including more damage for itself when needed. We can add more depth to the job by putting Monomachy on a Cooldown and wearing off on the first additional effect inflicted forcing Red Mage to decide which additional effect to use when within a Raid - and just insure that the potency of these debuffs are balanced out (which could take time).

And it would also solve my huge annoyance of Monomachy existing in PvP with absolutely no reference to its PvE incarnation whatsoever. >.>

At that point, though, wouldn't one be adding a hotbar action just to include an obligatory ability the like of WoW's Hunter's Mark, whereby you can only do full damage to a single target at a time, and where that target can only be adjusted per 10 seconds? Imagine if you had to repop Enochian (albeit at a 10s CD) every time you wanted to change targets. I can hardly imagine something feeling more bloated in dungeons or the like.

The added mitigation isn't particularly useful for RDM, either, as it's still too small to allow for any new survival benchmarks (as per Manaward), and its effect on healer GCDs required would likely be nonexistant, as they'll still also be healing for all those who lack the 10% added mitigation. Nor is that mitigation really necessary...

Moreover, RDM isn't a whole 10% behind in pDPS. Now, that can be reduced to 5% or so, but then... why even spend an action bar slot on it, as by 5% swapping really does become a negligible loss? The buff would also do nothing about any clunkiness, relative uptime concerns (e.g. during 3-GCDs or more continuous movement, which melee combos cannot be held for without heavy ppm loss), ill-fitting utility, or the like.

I don't mean to say that Manomachy, or some version thereof, isn't a good idea, but to say that to add Manomachy and only Manomachy is a best solution just because it's simple (despite complex issues) seems -- to me, at least -- vastly oversimplifying and reductive.