Can we do something about Secret of the Lily II now?

[Exiled_Tonberry]

Anyway, Lightspeed rework is great and the cd finally become something good, but the trait is terrible if not worse than lilies



As for Lilies not relying on RNG to proc, yes this should be a thing.
At least cureII should give a 100% chance.

10s off Lightspeed everytime you use your ogcd heal, which now is less likely to clip, is fantastic. It's useful, noticeable and give you quicker access to 10s of complete mobility. How is this in any way worse than the Lily trait?

Also not sure if you meant lilies or the Lily trait at the end there, but Cure II has always been a guaranteed proc.

[Sylvain]

10s off Lightspeed everytime you use your ogcd heal, which now is less likely to clip, is fantastic. It's useful, noticeable and give you quicker access to 10s of complete mobility. How is this in any way worse than the Lily trait?

Also not sure if you meant lilies or the Lily trait at the end there, but Cure II has always been a guaranteed proc.

It is bad because Light Speed is NOT something you want on CD at all time
It is not Eartherflow
It is not Draw cards
It doesn't increase your healing
It doesn't increase your dps

It only makes you save mana and, eventually, increase your uptime (which can be considered healing/dps increase but then it needs to be popped at a specific time, not whenever it's up)


It is a situational skill

And this situational skill has it cd shortened by another situational skill.

Complete mobility is nice for BLM, not AST. Again the number of situation where you will need 12sec of instant spell is scarce to not say nearly non existent. AST usually use LightSpeed as a mana saver.
I mean, how many time would you actually need to have 12sec of instant? Beside freeing up 3-4 maleficIII this won't do much.

I'm not saying that Lightspeed is bad, but I'm trying to point that it is not something you're gonna pop whenever it is up.
Think of it a bit like Benediction, you can either use it as an emergency spell or you time it for a specific mechanic, but it is not something you'll use whenever it is up.

Which is why AST trait is, in a sens, worse than WHM trait. Because at the very least the lilies affect something you use all the time. While it might be useless in controlled scenario when you simply farm the boss, during learning having access to more abilities is rarely a bad thing. It is also during learning that you're most likely to use cureII (because we have less gear and people do mistake).

Lilies just really fall short when the fight is perfectly undercontrol. But at this point the same could be said about Lightspeed, beside eventually allowing you to cast 6-9 more MaleficIII throughout the course of a fight it won't do much. And let's be honest, when you're farming a boss 9 MaleficIII is hardly something you need


Finally, last point. I forgot that cureII gives a lilies with 100% chance. Which effectively support your first say "People don't even pay attention to the mechanic"
I don't even know what procs them XD (it's my bad but yeah I don't really look at how many lilies I have)

[Heilstos]

My dear Sharl,

The reduction of the lightspeed by the property "Hyper Lightspeed" is unfortunately no longer so advantageous due to the change in the cooldown. Because through the reduction, the lightspeed no longer fits more tightly with opposition. Now the astrologain has to watch when he pulls the lightspeed.

But a positive aspect is left over Lightspeed and synastry will now be more enjoyable to use. Nevertheless, it should be watched to extend both buffs with Oppotion. Reducing the cooldown of Lightspeed through the property makes it difficult to apply the Oppotion window. Now the property feels like a corrective tool. I take the opinion that hyperlightspeed and Secret of the lily II have landed on the same level of usability.

And as I can read it from the thread. The majority of whitemages are not enthusiastic about the property. For my part, I would have been happy about a reduction of the CD from synastry.

[KDSilver]

Lvl 68 trait in general are "bad" honestly.

It feels like they didn't know what to do for that level to they choose to add a specific trait for each healer.
It's basically "each time your use X skill, X other skill will have it's cast time reduced".

Sure sure but...
Let's take Aetherflow for example since it's the best among the 3 trait. Indeed, it adds a new layer or AF managment that sounds great to learn, but in the end, you could just make AF being a 45s recast, it could be the "same", cause you'll definitly plan to get this 15s reduction. But AF isn't the best example, I agree, cause you have more flexibiliy with that trait since it's works well with Dissipation and the extra AF you get, meaning you can reduce the CD for 30s.
So when I'm saying "bad", Scholar is the less impacted by this because it truly adds another mechanics if I can say.

As for Ast... well, it's "nice" of course but... you'll use your ED anyway but you don't really feel rewarded by doing this. Not like Scholar. As I said, random trait because they didn't know what to do.

As for WHM... at this point, they could even copy the Ast trait and make Tetra uses reduced PoM CD, it would still be better than what we have.
I don't know why they wanted to focus so much on Cure and Cure II while WHM have so many healing spells. Medica II must have a higher usage in general than Cure and Cure II. Regen as well.
Besides, the random factor definitly proved us they really didn't know what to give to WHM at this lvl. I think even a smaller percentage on every GCD you cast (2% ? 5%) would make it at least better. 2% of increasing the potency of your next spell by 10. Work for DPS and healing. Really small gain, low rate, but still better than the current trait. I'm totally cluesless...

[Sylvain]

snip

At least 45sec Eatherflow IS good
More stack is good, it's more mana if not needed and more abilities, more fairy gauge
It also synergies well with dissipation as you said.

WHM and AST trait are just plain bad (I mean, the mean by which they get triggered)
I'd rather have Lightspeed CD reduced by 10sec everytime I Draw, at least this would be triggered by something that is suppose to be 100% of the time on CD.

[Tridus]

It's really funny, because in HW there was a similarly useless trait. A random chance to save half MP on Medica. But it was unreliable and unoticeable, just like this trait, and was removed in SB.
I guess this will be the same exact situation repeated...

Amusingly, that trait would be an upgrade over SotL2. You'll actually benefit from a cheap medica sometimes even if it's not very noticeable.

SotL2 has all kinds of problems, in that none of it really works:
1. It requires an RNG proc on an RNG proc, making it unlikely to happen.
2. It can only trigger on spells that WHMs don't want to spam in the first place, making it even more unlikely to happen.
3. If it does trigger, what it does isn't particularly desirable and is so trivial that it's barely perceptible.

Using the numbers previously assumed in here of a 25% crit rate, it's got a 1/20 chance of going off from a Cure II. I can go through entire experts without casting Cure II 10 times, depending on how squishy the tank is/how big they're pulling. The odds are pretty high that it never triggers at all. If it does, who cares? I'm unlikely to even notice 5 seconds on Asylum. (I remember the one time I did notice it and went "huh? oh, right, that trait exists...")

It is a situational skill

And this situational skill has it cd shortened by another situational skill.

And this makes it worse than the WHM version... how?

Which is why AST trait is, in a sens, worse than WHM trait. Because at the very least the lilies affect something you use all the time. While it might be useless in controlled scenario when you simply farm the boss, during learning having access to more abilities is rarely a bad thing. It is also during learning that you're most likely to use cureII (because we have less gear and people do mistake).

The WHM trait in question (SotL2) doesn't give lilies. It reduces the CD of Assize or Asylum by 5 seconds, 20% of the time Cure II crits. That's somewhere around a 5% chance when you cast Cure II to get 5 seconds off one of two abilities. Comparatively, Hyper Lightspeed gives double the CDR with a 100% chance to activate. That means it is doing more, more often, and more reliably. Even if the last part is a wash (if neither care about the CDR), one of these is objectively better than the other.

But hey, want to trade? I'd take 10s off every time I cast DB and you can have a 5% chance to get 5s every time you cast Benefic II. And lets not even talk about Quickened Aetherflow, which is vastly superior to either of them.

Finally, last point. I forgot that cureII gives a lilies with 100% chance. Which effectively support your first say "People don't even pay attention to the mechanic"
I don't even know what procs them XD (it's my bad but yeah I don't really look at how many lilies I have)

Cure I also has a 100% chance to give lilies.

[Sylvain]

The WHM trait in question (SotL2) doesn't give lilies. It reduces the CD of Assize or Asylum by 5 seconds, 20% of the time Cure II crits. That's somewhere around a 5% chance when you cast Cure II to get 5 seconds off one of two abilities. Comparatively, Hyper Lightspeed gives double the CDR with a 100% chance to activate. That means it is doing more, more often, and more reliably. Even if the last part is a wash (if neither care about the CDR), one of these is objectively better than the other.

God I really need to read these traits tooltip again.

Fine, SotL2 is utter trash beyond redemption.XD

I still maintain that HyperLightspeed is a bad trait.
But at this point only SCH has a good trait (a boring one, granted, but 15sec on Eatherflows is not bad)

The lilies mechanic received so little love from the community that I would expect some decent rework for 5.0
But for AST, I think 4.3 Hyperlightspeed is the only rework we'll ever get on that trait.

[Tridus]

God I really need to read these traits tooltip again.

Fine, SotL2 is utter trash beyond redemption.XD

I still maintain that HyperLightspeed is a bad trait.
But at this point only SCH has a good trait (a boring one, granted, but 15sec on Eatherflows is not bad)

Yep, that's fair. It's not a zero sum game. One trait needing work doesn't mean another one doesn't also need work.

Quickened Aetherflow is great. It's not very exciting, but it's reliable and makes a difference. If you removed it, there would be a real impact on how SCH plays.

If you removed SotL2, how long would it be before anyone even noticed it was gone?

The lilies mechanic received so little love from the community that I would expect some decent rework for 5.0
But for AST, I think 4.3 Hyperlightspeed is the only rework we'll ever get on that trait.

It's hard to say what they plan to do in 5.0, but yeah. There will be displeasure if they leave lilies alone. They're only getting away with it now because WHM is fine without it (which really proves that it was tacked on to have a job gauge). It's too bad because it's a cool looking gauge, but mechanically it's irrelevant.

Personally I'd flip the whole thing around and make lilies something you gain from using oGCDs and have them boost the potency of your GCD heals instead. People would care about a boosted Regen. Or, have them usable for DPS, like 3 lilies gives you an oGCD high potency nuke to help pDPS on a job that needs that since it has zero rDPS.

[Naryoril]

One change that should be easy to implement is to gain lilies on any GCD heal spell. Maybe make SotL II to do exactly that. It would make lilies and the useless trait more meaningful.

[Saraphin]

WHM doesn't need help making more lilies. The concept needs a rework, simple as that.