And so it begins again

[Miste]

A very small percentage of the player base actually come on the forums, and an even smaller portion are actually from Chaos, and an even smaller portion actively main WHM.

Yes, exactly, and you yourself are an even smaller percentage of one single player with an anecdotal experience and no proof that a large amount of groups are locking out WHM solely because it is WHM. So you actually defeated yourself with this response.

Yes, the other Chaos posters who replied are also anecdotal experiences, but if there was a "large amount" of groups excluding WHM like you claimed in your OP...doesn't that mean they should have seen some of what you saw by now??

They cast a lot of doubt on your claims..especially since you have zero evidence.

I think it's fairly obvious when a group is replacing members, it looks similar to the SS you posted. These groups were new, ordered, several roles specified, no gaps in the party list.

Just because there are no gaps in the party list doesn't mean no one left the PF and needs to be replaced. You are just making assumptions again. I told you unless you sent a /tell to the leader and they specifically told you "I'm locking out WHM because AST is better" then you have zero context.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I've neither been criticised, nor am I lying.

I suppose Sebazy will have to chime in on the EU scene because you have multiple people from Aether and Primal claiming otherwise. And seeing I have been in multiple groups for the primal, I've looked enough times to know WHM getting locked out simply isn't a thing here. Why not post some screenshots?

[Yuyuka3]

Yes, exactly, and you yourself are an even smaller percentage of one single player with an anecdotal experience and no proof that a large amount of groups are locking out WHM solely because it is WHM. So you actually defeated yourself with this response.

Yes, the other Chaos posters who replied are also anecdotal experiences, but if there was a "large amount" of groups excluding WHM like you claimed in your OP...doesn't that mean they should have seen some of what you saw by now??

I remember being told at the end of 3.X that I'm seeing things when I said WHMs are getting excluded, but apparently now it's common knowledge.

Btw, I just got asked why I'm not playing AST instead of WHM. Again.

[Lunaxia]

etc. etc..

A single player who observed the groups in the Chaos PF, which is more representative of the general atmosphere there than several Aether posters telling me I imagined it. I have proof, I've seen it. Again, if you choose not to believe me, that is your business.

etc. etc. etc. etc. ...

I do have evidence, otherwise I wouldn't have posted, I just don't have any that satisfies you, and that's not my problem. If those posters have had more luck in PF, that's great, but I've witnessed WHMs being on the outside once again, gradually, but notably stronger with this patch.

snip

I did not take any, admittedly I should have foreseen being called a troll, a liar, paranoid and being told my own eyes are somehow wrong. Though I'm sure if I had, they'd have been discredited somehow.

snip

The other night I almost changed my search info to "No, I won't switch to AST" after the same thing happened. I want my cane, all right?!

[Exiled_Tonberry]

Just out of curiosity I checked PF again during prime time raiding hours.

14 Tsukuyomi parties on Aether, not a single one locking WHM out. Some of them even had two WHMs in them lol. Not sure why you're so adamant about making a big deal out of something that is clearly not happening.

[Ghishlain]

Check Aether PF at 4:36PM on May 24th. Certainly not prime time but there were still 7 parties up. Here are their compositions.

Party #1 - AST+WHM
Party #2 - No healers (no healer exclusions)
Party #3 - SCH+AST
Party #4 - AST+WHM
Party #5 - AST+WHM
Party #6 - WHM+SCH
Party #7 - WHM+AST

~Screenshots of the parties can be found here~

Still not seeing any WHM exclusions based on the above. SCH is certainly the least representative of the pairings so far but it's an incredibly small sample size too.

I'll check again later tonight when my group is getting together to do this fight.

I'd be curious to see how the PFs on Chaos look since it should be prime time / near the end of prime time for them at the time of this posting. Screenshots would be nice to compliment this request.

The other night I almost changed my search info to "No, I won't switch to AST" after the same thing happened. I want my cane, all right?!

Then tell them you want to play WHM and leave it at that.

[Beelhi]

I havn't seen a single PF locking out WHM, if anything, whenever I try to join, WHM was already in the group (and i have checked alot of groups). OH actually, I saw ONE Log group that wanted SCH/AST so...i guess that means you're right? <.<
Stop kidding yourself, you saw 1-2-3 groups that wanted AST/SCH, doesn't mean WHM is being locked out in the majority of the content.

[Miste]

I do have evidence, otherwise I wouldn't have posted, I just don't have any that satisfies you, and that's not my problem.

Personal anecdotes are not evidence.

You don't understand that you have zero factual evidence to prove your statement that "a large amount of groups are excluding WHMs."

It has nothing to do with what satisfies me...you just objectively have absolutely no proof of your claims.

The only way to get proof would be to do a study and find some factual data.

Analyze the PF all day and night for a week gathering data from ALL PFs ever listed during that week.
Send /tells to any PF leaders who have locked healer slots to AST or SCH, and ask them why.
Record all interactions, all PFs, and all findings.
Compile their answers to see who in fact is excluding WHM simply because it is WHM.
Find a percentage of total PFs that excluded WHM for that week.

Then you would have factual evidence.

I've witnessed WHMs being on the outside once again, gradually, but notably stronger with this patch

WHM and SCH have more parses than AST so far for the entire tier of sigma savage and that includes all data centers. So the raiding community is making plenty use of WHM.

If WHM is well represented in savage then who would actually exclude them from a simple EX primal? If anyone did, they are not people you wanna waste your time with because they obviously have a screw loose.

[Lunaxia]

snip

I didn't say it's being locked out of the majority content, I said WHM is becoming irrelevant to the point of being excluded in certain scenarios once again, which is a valid concern to have with a class. "well it's still ok" isn't much consolation.

Regardless of how few you may have seen, the fact they exist is a problem. The balance is off when it's a case of guaranteed spot vs. "uhm fine I guess but can you change?"

ha

It is to satisfy you, as I've already stated I don't particularly care if you believe me or not. No amount of demanding "factual evidence" I'm not obligated to provide you is going to change what I've seen. As I've said, believe me, don't believe me, it's immaterial. Really, if you're so certain I'm lying, why does this concern you so much?

The groups cropped up with this patch, I'm assuming with the recent changes.

[miraidensetsu]

Well, not even me, that has feared that lockout, hadn't seen any WHM lockout. At least, not on Primal.

And I went to parties normally, without any changes. I wasn't locked out from parties nor kicked out. And I'm WHM.