Can we remove the Dark Arts Treadmill?

[ValentineSnow]

I feel like the concept of dark arts has been lost since it's introduction.

It used to be a way of tactically enhancing certain moves to perform beyond what that move should do at the cost of mp. Such as making a 1 min recast defensive CD mitigate a whopping 30% damage or have an attack do a massive 400 potency hit, the highest GCD attack in the game at the time (excluding fell cleave due to wrath requirement).

Now it's just a case of spam it mindlessly whenever you have the mp for a 140 potency boost on your next attack. The only cases left where you have to even think slightly about it is making sure you have enough mp to DA C&S when it's coming off CD or if you need the enmity from plunge or blind from DP.

[Hazmick]

My biggest complaint about Dark Arts is actually the mp cost. If I'm not in Grit I always feel like I never have enough mp to use Dark Arts as much as I'd like, unless I pop a blood weapon every so often. It feels like another skill which is kind of not needed, and makes the job feel more frustrating to play than it should be.

I seem to be alone in my mp problems though so I'm likely just doing something wrong. ^_^

[bustamanteverde]

DRK in a nutshell:

Darkarts > Weapon Skill/Action > Dark Arts > Weapon Skill/Action > Dark Arts > Weapon Skill/Action ugh not a fan of that play style. Just make Dark Arts a 10sec buff that gives the potency to the 80% of DRK abilities that consume Dark arts x_X

[CoolCat]

I can't wait to one day use Dark Arts on Dark Arts.

[Eliroth-Kaminari]

yes make Darkart effect stackable like 10 times oh right evry single action will consume it.

then again if we had passive mp gain we could stack DA stacks up for burst when boss return would fix issue that DK get most punished when there is no dps mechanic happening because 0 burst dmg.

[Satarn]

Just make Dark Arts a 10sec buff that gives the potency to the 80% of DRK abilities that consume Dark arts x_X

Don't wanna be rude but... go play paladin then? You are literally asking for a stronger version of Requiscat. We've already had WAR's burst mechanics made way too similar to PLD's, don't need to make DRK go down the same path.

yes make Darkart effect stackable like 10 times oh right evry single action will consume it.

How is making DA stackable helping with the issue of it feeling too spammy? You'd still have to press it just as much, not to mention it would still get consumed at the exact same rate since almost every gcd eats it.

Dark Arts itself is not the problem. It was the same "press once before a skill to add an effect" in Heavensward. What changed is that SE removed 2 gcds(3 if you count Fracture) that didn't consume it and added 2 more that do, forcing us to double weave in order to spend DA on an ogcd skill. Another thing is that DA effects got homogenized into an "add 140 potency button", making the choice of what to spend it on, mostly meaningless.

It's not Dark Arts that needs to change, it's the ways we spend it.

[Xenosan]

A change to DA so that it persist for 10 seconds to enhance many actions would require a change to MP intake - or a revert to Darkside MP drain. (oGCDs not consuming DA wouldn't be so bad, because that is timer more than resource). I think that could be more a 5.0 change if they are going to get that drastic. Because it also affects TBN in a way.

TBN is the alternative to DA, outside the 15s waiting period, so how much would such a change affect TBN availability as well?

Stacks don't change so much, they wouldn't bring down APM overall, but would spread that APM out so its more manageable.

Stacks are a buffer, rearranging oGCD sequence to avoid stalls (like a delayed GCDs, delayed OGCDs [ie C&S pushed back a GCD], Blood capping [or delaying DEL], MP capping).

Delaying non-MP-consume oGCDs (excluding essential Defense/Utility CDs) are usually the best (delaying even a couple OGCDs can push a C&S/SS/DEL/SEarth/etc off of a raid phase - and depending on the fight and partyDPS, dropping an oGCD from a phase could result in dropping a later oGCD from the encounter entirely). Same goes for delaying GCDs if you decide to triple weave instead.

I can't wait to one day use Dark Arts on Dark Arts.

Agree that they'd really have to change DA animation to coincide with it

DA+DA would have to execute as quickly as Mudra combo. Huton is always up opposed to Blood Weapon. If NIN can make do I think DRK would too.

[Shurrikhan]

I mean, unless you have like 100 or more ping, you can double weave without much problem, even during Blood Weapon. The offtank opener is like 4 double weaves in a row, otherwise you're capping your mana way too much, or delaying all your buffs.
For example, a ninja has to double weave to throw a Fuma (Ten > Ninjustsu), and that's possible without clipping as well (considering a NIN GCD is shorter than a DRK GCD under Blood Weapon).

Of course, if you try to double weave Plunge, it will clip (I mean, old Plunge, let's see how short the animation is after the maintenance).

One's ping isn't necessarily a great indicator of queue actuation times. I can play at 120 ping and double-weave almost losslessly at times (over all skills queued in a 30-second rotational string, less than half a second of delay), but can also end up losing nearly a whole GCD that under the exact same rotation and rigor when moving between 50 and 80 average ping over the course of the rotation... even with each test repeated 4-5 times. There's more to it to equation than merely average ping.

When SE first moved the NA servers to Sacramento, some 300 miles from my house, rather than over 2000, my ping dropped by less than half, but that was still enough to allow me to double-weave for 4 GCDs (all after reaching GL3) with less than a half-second of uptime lost over my opener, despite having less than a 2.2 base (less than 1.9 in GL3) GCD. Not long after Stormblood, however, I've been losing more and more uptime in similar conditions, to the point that it's a rare treat for me to be able to double-weave even during Riddle of Fire (-15% attack speed), while pocket loss reverts about 1 in 4 Suiton casts to Raiton or Fuma. My double-weaves have gradually decayed from actually feeling smooth and responsive for once to often worse than when my average ping was around 120+ (at over 2k miles distant from the server), rather than 61-67, if only due to my abilities no longer seemingly being able to clip each other as early.

[Reinha]

I'm starting to tire of spamming it. Even if it's required to use in a majority of abilities just for damage, I really want us to get rid of the whole oGCD Double Weave we're forced to for stuff outside of Carve and Spit. I can only hope they fix this for either late in the expansion or 5.0.

DRK in a nutshell:

Darkarts > Weapon Skill/Action > Dark Arts > Weapon Skill/Action > Dark Arts > Weapon Skill/Action ugh not a fan of that play style. Just make Dark Arts a 10sec buff that gives the potency to the 80% of DRK abilities that consume Dark arts x_X

I am a fan of that playstyle. To my knowledge it's the only job with that kind of unending button spam so can't people just play some other job if they don't like it instead of asking this playstyle to be removed from the game? It reminds me of the bow mage situation where the ranged playstyle was removed in favor of having more "casters".

[Ekimmak]

I mean, unless you have like 100 or more ping, you can double weave without much problem, even during Blood Weapon. The offtank opener is like 4 double weaves in a row, otherwise you're capping your mana way too much, or delaying all your buffs.
For example, a ninja has to double weave to throw a Fuma (Ten > Ninjustsu), and that's possible without clipping as well (considering a NIN GCD is shorter than a DRK GCD under Blood Weapon).

Of course, if you try to double weave Plunge, it will clip (I mean, old Plunge, let's see how short the animation is after the maintenance).

My average ping time is 500, FYI.

On bad days, it can go up to 1000. under 100 ping time is honestly a number I'm never going to see.