seems like FF community start to get known

[Gleipni]

Reminds me a bit how things was done in FF11 back in the day. You had a reputation. If you had a bad reputation you wouldn't get invited and could be harder get into endgame linkshells.

the thing in FF14,since nothing is gated,you just end up with everything and everyone.there is no public list of troll or people who have nothing to do in end content,thats one thing i agree that people tend to be mad at,gate endgame content to not have all that frustration to be with people that have nothing to do there

[Mhaeric]

If the dungeons couldn't be tanked by a DPS you might be right, but with current dungeon tuning a tank is nothing but an artificial role enforced by the duty finder itself.

Back in 3.0, I tanked all of The Aetherochemical Research Facility as a summoner once when the tank left immediately upon loading in. It was super fun! 2 dps and a healer is all you need.

Re: rest of thread...
A tank makes it easier and in a random pug most people will defer to a tank since they're the ones who have the most immediate and obvious influence on the pace of a dungeon, but they're not the de facto "in charge" party member. No one is, to be honest.

[KaldeaSahaline]

It might just be because it's a lot easier to wipe in WoW dungeons then XIV due to its pulls being balanced around use of crowd control (Whereas XIV opted to make most enemies just flat-out immune to CC like bind/sleep in HW onwards), plus the enemies have much more unpleasant abilities to deal with and kill priority is actually important as a result.

I have to echo Shurrikans statement. In the decade+ that I played WoW I can count on 2 hands the number of actual toxic events. It's not that common at the level I play at. However, in FF14, there are a lot of events that I consider toxic that you may not, and naturally the opposite is true as well.

The root cause that I've learned is that accountability matters. In general, people don't like being held accountable (IG and IRL). That's why I can say that WoW may have been insanely toxic for you, but it wasn't for me. That was because I didn't mind being held accountable, and by that standard I held others accountable. A result is that I had a much better time in game than you.

For science - I went to check your logs and I noted that they are hidden. This actually supports my hypothesis. Please do not take this the wrong way, but that is evidence that you do not like being held accountable. As such, it stands that you would find FF14 a much safer haven where accountability is generally hidden.

You know, I'll say this - as bad as the FFXIV community can be at times, as bad as it is relative to FFXI (and IMO it's significantly worse), it's nowhere in the same realm as WoW, the long-running MMO champ. WoW's community drove me away from the community quite quickly; I started a free trial, I started wandering with a few friends, I turned off chat filters in the Barrens and... yup, that was it. No more WoW for me. It read like a 4chan board.

You uninstalled the game and wrote it off because of Barrens chat? That's comically impressive. Not only is it an isolated meme, but it's not even making it out of the starting area. I mean hell, I've seen Rhalgrs shouting get pretty ridiculous, and not even talking about Eureka either. Areas significantly more relevant than the Barrens.

[Mixt]

Let me tell you a little Tank anecdote.

I'm doing a dungeon for the first time, going in as Paladin as usual.

Since i haven't done the dungeon before i take the cautious approach at first by only pulling one set of mobs at a time.
But then the other players start yelling at me to do "BIGGER PULLS!"
I comply just to get them to stop yelling at me...and promptly get killed by the horde, which then goes on to kill the rest of the party.
I used all cooldowns, up to and including Hallowed Ground and self healing with Clemency, still died.

Naturally i get blamed for us wiping, because apparantly caving to their demands makes it my fault we all died.
The healer didn't even try to heal me, focusing on DPS instead "Because it's faster that way"
Still all my fault though.

Yay speed-run mentality, look what you did.

[kidalutz]

*Scratches head* Man did this thing get effin sidetracked.

[MintnHoney]

^^^
Ironically, that's what this community is known for.

[Darric]

Hello. May I join the fun? I just want to drop by a few words in a certain relationship we could talk about while we are at this topic. taking for granted - trust - teamwork. I find these words are quite misinterpreted in most MMO's, including FFXIV. Especially when it comes to tanks here.

[KageTokage]

snip

I feel like you're drawing an awful lot of assumptions.

For starters, it seems like you think I was a bad player and the one responsible for the toxicity I ran into in WoW, when that generally wasn't the case and I was usually just a quiet observer of the drama that unfolded as a result of people being dumb in one way or another. I must've just been really unlucky with the people I encountered or something, because the overall player attitude felt a lot more unpleasant to me and people felt far less tolerant of mistakes. The vast majority of content Idid with randoms were just dungeon roulettes, because the raid finder was a new thing when I had quit back towards the end of Cataclysm.

Also, if I screw up, I'll readily admit to it, and not try to pin the blame on others. Accountability is not an issue to me at all.

And thanks for reminding me why I hate FFLogs. I decided to unhide my parses after some people expressed that hiding them generally makes people more dubious of you then keeping mediocre parses unhidden, but it pisses me off that I have feel like I'm being observed and pre-judged by people without any knowledge of it (As far as I'm concerned, I only care about the "now", not how people have performed in the past). The only reason I hid them in the first place was because I don't actively upload parses, which means my numbers aren't exactly accurate and I had someone judge me poorly because of a single, sloppy OS4 Exdeath kill someone uploaded that made him conclude that I "wasn't ready" for Neo Exdeath (I killed it not long after that), which left me feeling extremely sour. A lot of people are too stupid to check for outside factors like deaths due to slacking healers and/or OTs who don't provoke periodically to keep the boss from squishing people if the MT dies when judging parses and will only look at the numbers and just assume you're bad. Overall, it's a flawed system that I wish I wasn't forced to take part in.

[F_Maximillian]

I feel like you're drawing an awful lot of assumptions.

For starters, it seems like you think I was a bad player and the one responsible for the toxicity I ran into in WoW, when that generally wasn't the case and I was usually just a quiet observer of the drama that unfolded as a result of people being dumb in one way or another. I must've just been really unlucky with the people I encountered or something, because the overall player attitude felt a lot more unpleasant to me and people felt far less tolerant of mistakes. The vast majority of content Idid with randoms were just dungeon roulettes, because the raid finder was a new thing when I had quit back towards the end of Cataclysm.

Also, if I screw up, I'll readily admit to it, and not try to pin the blame on others. Accountability is not an issue to me at all.

And thanks for reminding me why I hate FFLogs. I decided to unhide my parses after some people expressed that hiding them generally makes people more dubious of you then keeping mediocre parses unhidden, but it pisses me off that I have feel like I'm being observed and pre-judged by people without any knowledge of it (As far as I'm concerned, I only care about the "now", not how people have performed in the past). The only reason I hid them in the first place was because I don't actively upload parses, which means my numbers aren't exactly accurate and I had someone judge me poorly because of a single, sloppy OS4 Exdeath kill someone uploaded that made him conclude that I "wasn't ready" for Neo Exdeath (I killed it not long after that), which left me feeling extremely sour. A lot of people are too stupid to check for outside factors like deaths due to slacking healers and/or OTs who don't provoke periodically to keep the boss from squishing people if the MT dies when judging parses and will only look at the numbers and just assume you're bad. Overall, it's a flawed system that I wish I wasn't forced to take part in.

Part of the blame falls on FFLogs yes but the reason why many people put so much stock in it has to do with the playerbase. Far too many people try to slip into things they aren't ready for looking to get carried and refusing to improve when its brought up, more than any I've seen on any MMORPG I've played. It's to the point where it has less to do with top notch performance and more with people to checking to see if you were someone who snuck in for a carry or if you legitimately belong there.

Obviously things aren't so black and white but just like many things in life there has to be an imperfect filter because people don't have time to go on a case-by-case basis nor do they wish to risk wasting their time with someone who is clearly not cut out for the task. And honestly, while there are exceptions, in my experience people who had exceptionally terrible logs weren't merely caught in a bad moment but were just as bad as their logs suggested. Granted I probably define bad much more loosely than most (i.e not one of those if not orange then bad types) but still if you see say a samurai with repeated sub 10th percentile kills that isn't a bad run it's a player who needs work somewhere whether it be on their rotation or the fight itself.

Of course there are unfair cases like what had happened to you on that O4S run but overall it does make it easier to filter people out through pugging. I decided to check and honestly if you're clearing god kefka repeatedly I don't know many reasonable people who would mind having you there so your logs seem fine to me. Yes, while misuse of FFLogs does happen, the community is mostly to blame either way you look at it (the community misusing FFLogs or the community forcing people into needing it to filter them because they try getting carried without putting the work in). Just like any tool, something created with good intentions can be used by those with ill intent.

[Shurrikhan]

And thanks for reminding me why I hate FFLogs. I decided to unhide my parses after some people expressed that hiding them generally makes people more dubious of you then keeping mediocre parses unhidden, but it pisses me off that I have feel like I'm being observed and pre-judged by people without any knowledge of it (As far as I'm concerned, I only care about the "now", not how people have performed in the past). The only reason I hid them in the first place was because I don't actively upload parses, which means my numbers aren't exactly accurate and I had someone judge me poorly because of a single, sloppy OS4 Exdeath kill someone uploaded that made him conclude that I "wasn't ready" for Neo Exdeath (I killed it not long after that), which left me feeling extremely sour. A lot of people are too stupid to check for outside factors like deaths due to slacking healers and/or OTs who don't provoke periodically to keep the boss from squishing people if the MT dies when judging parses and will only look at the numbers and just assume you're bad. Overall, it's a flawed system that I wish I wasn't forced to take part in.

Even more fun: when a pug wipes group repeatedly on a pre-farm night to make room for God Kefka prog and then uploading his red parses, dropping you from your 95+ average to mid-70s on the only parse you can't actually hide, since it's not your personal log.

I dislike FFlogs for one thing only: that permission is assumed and sampling therefore, while certainly less padded, is erratic and often unknown to the one being sampled. I understand that I don't own the logs of the poster (who may or may not have caused such an uncharacteristically low parse, for instance), but I do dislike being judged by an outlier I had no knowledge of until being called out thereover on the simple basis that my own parses, for whatever reason, won't upload... even when following the same steps that work from another, previously computer (which sadly gets only some 15 fps in raids since the removal of DX9).

On the other hand, a low parse seems far more taken in swing in WoW and warcraftlogs, if only because there is a seemingly far, far longer total progression curve available within the expansion.

Sadly, just as in XIV, many PuG parties want absurd item levels, even while guilds will trust people to play their parts even with the minimum ilvl cheesed. Just as in XIV, many with those absurd item levels will still fail just as absurdly from silly things.

But I guess I've just... lucked out over my 10-15 hours a week of WoW over the last 3-4 years (scattered streaks of play, paused to start raiding here again) in that case. I've been laughing my butt off with more PuG parties than I've been silent with, and have added people to friends lists after runs some 5x or more than I've added anyone to a blacklist. And that goes for leveling to Heroic dungeons to Mythic+15 to Heroic raids, etc. And I've only once heard anything alike to "you don't pay my sub", whereas I hear it at least three times a week on XIV. At worst I hear shit like "that's a bit too smart for me... I'll do my best?" or "noted and drunkenly forgotten".

But again, anecdotal data. And while I don't think my sample size is "low" exactly, with so many runs and hours, it's ridiculously far from comprehensively representative as well.